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That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

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Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#91

Post by daheza »

daedrdev wrote: post #47
KennyBlanken wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't there be passive protection systems designed in? Because the US chemical industry has been effectively unregulated for a century and can do whatever it pleases. There's a neutralizing chemical that could have been injected to stop the exothermic reaction in its tracks. They didn't have it on site. A "response team" (likely a contractor that responds to chemical emergencies) did, but by the time they sh…

In California, this is absolutely not the case. Regulations are strict, chemical emissions are heavily restricted and proper disposal of chemicals via specialized companies at great expense. Chemical companies have no need of formulating new versions because everything causes cancer under prop 65. They absolutely have numerous permits for chemicals, your claim that they don't denies reality. This case probably fell t…

That's the deep dive that I want to see. A breakdown of the policy failures that lead to this situation.

Why is a tank this large of a chemical that can have runaway thermal reaction allowed in an area 500ft from residential areas? Why is this chemical allowed in an area that is considered light manufacturing?

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#92

Post by devilbunny »

cryzinger wrote: post #3
HoldOnAMinute wrote: post #2

When this is all over, when they peel the metal tank away, will they have a gigantic clear block of material?

Ooh, like when a bottle of Krazy Glue dries out? I kinda hope so...

Note that it doesn’t dry out; it polymerizes, and the reaction is catalyzed by water, which is why cyanoacrylate glues will stick your fingertips together instantly but will not as rapidly stick plastics or metals together.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#93

Post by left-struck »

Waterluvian wrote: post #13

I had wondered the whole time why they didn’t just pierce it with an AM rifle. Would that not have been better than a random partial failure via a crack? Genuinely open question. I don’t know anything about stuff.

If you shoot and pierce a vessel that is pressurised, especially if it’s near its pressure limit anyway, it will explode. Even if it’s just filled with an inert gas.

Actually even just making a hole by any means will significantly increase the chances of an explosion. This because the smallest crack can start a chain reaction where the material at the leading edge of the crack is bearing too much stress and the bonds break which then passes the stress on to the material straight after that. This all happens very quickly and can even accelerate as the hole grows bigger and gas starts moving.

It’s very lucky that the crack that formed didn’t propagate like that. It could be for many reasons though, like the crack front could have run into thicker material or a weld line or something like that and if luckily stopped the crack.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#94

Post by [deleted] »

kenhwang wrote: post #57
dan_sbl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they tried to inject some chemicals to slow the reaction, but the pump and/or valves failed and clogged.

I was thinking maybe have those chemicals sitting in a glass or temperature sensitive container inside the tank. So when there's too much pressure or heat, the container containing the neutralizing chemical is broken like a fuse and the chemical is automatically released.

[deleted]

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#96

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

dralley wrote: post #86
_whiteCaps_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWmONHipVo MythBusters have a good BLEVE episode. Apparently Adam Savage's favourite explosion.

Typically BLEVE is used in a petrochemical context, where the hot "boiling liquid, expanding vapor" ignites on contact with oxygen.

A BLEVE does not need oxygen to become an explosion. The explosion occurs with the rupture of a tank (that has been heated, increasing the internal pressure and thus increasing the boiling point of the liquid inside, so that it remains liquid). This causes a loss of rapid loss of pressure, which in turn rapidly decreases the boiling point of the liquid, thus causing a sizable part of the liquid to almost immediately boil and cause an expanding "cloud" of gas.

When this occurs, you have an explosion that can propel parts of a steel propane tank up to 1/2 mile (at least).

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#97

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

ajb wrote: post #55
Waterluvian wrote: post #13

I had wondered the whole time why they didn’t just pierce it with an AM rifle. Would that not have been better than a random partial failure via a crack? Genuinely open question. I don’t know anything about stuff.

Not a direct answer, but there is a standard code for what actions emergency services should take, and the code[1] for this stuff is 3YE, which means "Use foam or dry agent, substance reacts violently/is explosive, BA [breathing apparatus] use is essential, evacuate vicinity, contain spill." So there must be some reason not to let the stuff out. [1] This is the hazchem code. I think the US uses a different system. A…

The US uses the Emergency Response Guide or ERG, which similarly lists more or less all hazardous materials and suggests appropriate responses.

Full document is here: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2024-04/...

Relevant guide is 129, which is on PDF page 189.

---------

SPILL OR LEAK

• ELIMINATE all ignition sources (no smoking, flares, sparks or flames) from immediate area.

• All equipment used when handling the product must be grounded.

• Do not touch or walk through spilled material. • Stop leak if you can do it without risk. • Prevent entry into waterways, sewers, basements or confined areas.

• A vapor-suppressing foam may be used to reduce vapors.

• Absorb or cover with dry earth, sand or other non-combustible material and transfer to containers.

• Use clean, non-sparking tools to collect absorbed material.

Large Spill

• Dike far ahead of liquid spill for later disposal.

• Water spray may reduce vapor, but may not prevent ignition in closed spaces.

---------

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#99

Post by fortran77 »

D-Coder wrote: post #83
ok_dad wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He never gave us a fucking manual in the first place, so who knows what He is thinking.

> He never gave us a fucking manual in the first place, so who knows what He is thinking. He did give us a manual. He very clearly says that slavery is okay and eating shrimp is a sin, and lots of other rules.

Slavery is not OK. Someone indentured for owing a debt can be compelled for a maximum of six years and goes free in the seventh, with no payment required from him.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#100

Post by somat »

devilbunny wrote: post #92
cryzinger wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooh, like when a bottle of Krazy Glue dries out? I kinda hope so...

Note that it doesn’t dry out; it polymerizes, and the reaction is catalyzed by water, which is why cyanoacrylate glues will stick your fingertips together instantly but will not as rapidly stick plastics or metals together.

There are superglue(CA) accelerators sold, is that just a big scam? Because as far as I can tell a spray bottle with water works just as well.
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