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Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

nytimes.com

91–100 of 143 posts

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#91

This is fairly speculative, but I have been thinking this paradox over for a while. A high demand for scarce highly skilled workers must drive salaries up in competition. Unless the skills are not actually high skilled, but obscure skills . I predict that "high skilled manufacturing" is a morass of proprietary solutions to highly specific process needs - that is, the metal fabrication plant alluded to at 10USD per ho…

WRT the skill of "repairing the proprietary code," there isn't any repair of code (in the literal sense). It is actually the skill of clicking the right buttons (often in a horribly designed GUI) to make a proprietary machine do what it needs to do.

Come to think about it, it isn't obscure skills, it is obscure knowledge. The problems are (a) there is really no skill involved, (b) the knowledge involved is specific to a proprietary machine and proprietary program, and (c) the training courses are training specific knowledge, not the principles and cross-training that would apply more universally.

Mapping to our (geek) world, training obscure knowledge vs. actual skills is all the "office productivity training" that goes on which really is "which buttons to click in Excel"... leaving the trainee helpless in LibreOffice because the button is in a different spot and possibly labeled differently. Note that the trainer is not entirely at fault - I've been amazed at the number of trainees that cannot generalize.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#92
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point and flailing at straw men. I don't care about the female ratio (Neither I think does any one who downvoted the OP). I am not going to discuss the utility of the HR department, the issue here is that they are human beings whom no one has the right to reduce as being mere eye-candy (which is particularly freaking sexist).

Sounds like the sexism is more on the side of whoever hired ten male programmers and two female hr staff.

The alternative would be more sexist. If you covered up everyone's names and fed their voice through a obfuscater you'd still end up with a similar ratio.

There are a lot more women in HR than men, and there are a lot more men in programming than women. There are many reasons why this is the case, many of which relate to sexism, but the fact that your overall result is gender-skewed is not in any way indicative of sexism in the hiring process.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#93
post #59
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen several job ads requiring "5+ years experience with Technology X" where Technology X is not yet 5 years old.

kenrikm, you have been hellbanned -- your posts are not visible but you're not informed of this. I hope you see this. I'm seriously considering leaving the HN community because of the frequency with which I see good contributors hellbanned.

I'm ready to jump ship too. It's gotten ridiculous. I wonder if they keep track of which mods are hellbanning people. Is it just a few bad apples or is it systemic? I've seen so many thoughtful, but invisible posts lately that it makes me feel sort of sick.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#94

This is fairly speculative, but I have been thinking this paradox over for a while. A high demand for scarce highly skilled workers must drive salaries up in competition. Unless the skills are not actually high skilled, but obscure skills . I predict that "high skilled manufacturing" is a morass of proprietary solutions to highly specific process needs - that is, the metal fabrication plant alluded to at 10USD per ho…

Both you and gvb seem to perhaps lack first-hand experience of machine shops.

It's not just "repairing code"... Oftentimes, small job shops will be taking a dimensioned drawing and write their own G code to actually generate the objects.

This will probably involve some back-and-forth with the machine stepping through the part manufacture, and must be done carefully to guarantee that both the machining is done efficiently by the machine and that the program doesn't result in a catastrophic failure damaging the workpiece, the tool, the machine, the operator, or some combination of the above.

This is, in fact, skilled work. Moreover, experienced operators know how to check parts for proper dimensioning (QC at the bench), perform maintenance on their machines and change tools, and watch a part in progress to make sure something really dumb isn't about to happen.

Moreover, the job doesn't stop at the machining center--you may still have to go and clean things up manually, do welding, do polishing, or any number of finishing touches.

Keeping this all working together is not something to laugh at.

I haven't even touched on the logistical challenges of retooling or upgrading equipment, or operating with machines that (unironically) still accept paper tape.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#95
post #53

If an Entrepreneur can't pay for the resources needed to build/ensure a product/service at their market prices, he should and eventually will, close business. There is nothing wrong with that. That is the economical system in the works. If no one is willing to pay for his product/service at the price he needs to charge, it is because either people do not need it, or they can get it cheaper somewhere else. In business…

What does that mean for us though, the "skilled workers" when everything is being shipped overseas? A friend of mine who works as a systems engineer for Verizon said their dumping 30% of their US staff and shipping it to overseas. This seems to be the pattern (anecdotally) as of late for a lot of large companies. When there's someone with comparable skills on the other side of the world who will do your job for a fraction of the cost, what's to stop a race to the bottom?

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#96
post #82

"The so-called skills gap is really a gap in education, and that affects all of us." That closing line doesn't really sound like the gist of the piece at all. It sounds like manufacturing employers just don't want to or don't feel they can afford to pay works a fair wage.

Here's the thing, though: You have to assume that they are correct. If one believes that they are incorrect, he is effectively stating that he (someone thinking abstractly in the absence of any hard data) is better at pricing the value of the work than the manufacturer (who is directly affected by the outcome and has a wealth of hard data). Several commenters have basically claimed that the manufacturers are behaving…

If one believes that they are incorrect, he is effectively stating that he (someone thinking abstractly in the absence of any hard data) is better at pricing the value of the work than the manufacturer (who is directly affected by the outcome and has a wealth of hard data).

The pricing error argument can be made based on a definition of "value" that is in fairly common use around here (market price) and no more data than is included in the article: they offer a certain price for the labor and don't get as much of it as they want, therefore the price they offer is lower than the value.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#97
post #61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a core problem is "HR" departments with absolutely no understanding of the positions they are supposed to be hiring for, even for technology companies where technology is supposed to be a core competency. The only thing stopping me from calling out HR departments in general as a sign of organisational cancer, since I am yet to encounter one that pulls even a tenth of its weight, is that they tend to be compri…

they tend to be comprised of the only cute girls in the whole company Why's that a reason not to fire the lot of them? You have a harridan making your life miserable with stupid policies but she looks cute ? You call that a good trade? You know companies could employ competent ladies in place of those cute ladies. Like a lady I knew who could write a whole network stack in assembler.

"You have a harridan making your life miserable with stupid policies but she looks cute? You call that a good trade?"

It's the basis of my marriage. :)

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just HR. I did an interview with a YC startup that obsessed over my lack of Rails experience. I have several years of industry relevant professional experience in Java, Python and PHP, but only ever dabbled in Ruby and Rails. Their offer (which did come through, grudgingly, through many repetitions of "so will you commit to teaching yourself rails before starting?" (No, I won't.) was quite a bit on the low e…

There are two sides to this: Either you have another skill that they need, or they just want a "generic (good) rails programmer" Of course skills are transferrable, within a timeframe. So if you're trying to ship something in 6 months this may not be acceptable

I got competent with Rails in 1 month. It would have taken less time if my boss hadn't had to run away for a week and a half and leave me with tutorial/study work rather than real meat I could cut my teeth on.

EDIT: Actually, I want to tell more of this story to emphasize what you can do with a reasonably competent employee willing to learn.

At the time, I was hired as a temporary contractor for 3-4 months. I had basically most of 1 month to get to basic competence with Rails, and it was supposed to be less. Then I started getting real work thrown at me. By the end of 3 months, I had justified my pay and my employers had no more temporary work to throw at me. They offered to hire as a full-time salaried employee, but by then I had a plan for grad-school and research.

That was at the end of June. Midway through November, my friend who originally recommended me to that employer messages me on Facebook. He tells a bit of an ironic story, one point of which is that he himself is now using and expanding-on the code I wrote in those two-point-something months. Apparently it's holding up pretty decently, and the team is able to ship product.

All this because the proprietor of the firm figured he could hire someone smart with a good work-ethic for a while and give him time to get competent with Rails rather than go unicorn hunting.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#99
The name of the article is misleading. It is all about the greedy fat cats that want mice to go to the mousetrap, but moaning about high prices for cheese, so they are unable to charge the mousetrap properly. Good for mice, bad for cats.

Re: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills

#100

From the article: "The secret behind this skills gap is that it’s not a skills gap at all. I spoke to several other factory managers who also confessed that they had a hard time recruiting in-demand workers for $10-an-hour jobs. 'It’s hard not to break out laughing,' says Mark Price, a labor economist at the Keystone Research Center, referring to manufacturers complaining about the shortage of skilled workers. 'If th…

I agree with most of this but perhaps not the conclusion.

The key point being that there is a skill 'valuation' gap which is being forced on the manufacturers by competition in distant countries. So piecework manufacturer in Minnesota has to compete with piecework manufacturer in Shenzen, and the former pays employees more and uses more automation and the latter has traditionally been able to throw many more humans at the task. Between the slowly rising demands in these countries, and the challenge of working with your factory that far away, we're just about to the point where its going to flip. I would have called it for this year but the great recession seemed to push everything back 2 - 3 years. So perhaps in 2015. Small manufacturers will either go out of business or require a higher price per good delivered, which supports effectively doubling the wage paid to their line workers. And those line workers will be essentially programmers programming tools, not doing the actual tooling.

The switch will be enabled by "high resolution" workstation automation. Today the last unassailable benefit of the 'tool and die' shop is that you've got a machinist and a machine tool which can be dynamically scheduled for any kind of widget. They are 'soft tooling' in that all of the gear that makes stuff doesn't need a dedicated fabrication line. The benefit is realized because setting up 'hard tooling' has a huge upfront cost and while the dedicated line is much more efficient, it also takes space away from other lines.

The calculus goes something like this : 0 - 1,000 widgets a 'precision' shop can make them; 1000+ to 50000 widgets a 'sweat shop' (primarily labor driven shop) can make them, and for 5000+ widgets you start to get the benefits of hard tooling amortized over your widgets.

As we get to the point where we have machines that have 'high level' sorts of capabilities (some early machines have been demonstrated by the Japanese and others) where your machine can take a dumped out pile of parts and assemble the widget, or 'partial hard tooling' where a machine creates intermediate tools to maximize efficiency "automatically" then it flips back to the place where a well equipped precision shop can make 10,000 widgets a month or arbitrary design and amortize over all 10,000 which switches the economics question back to transportation and re-spins (interaction with the original designers).

When I see robots that can pick up a cell phone, toss it and then catch it again at an arbitrary angle, you realize you can do material transfer by having workstations literally toss partial assemblies from one station to the next. That kind of flexibility is going to make for a very different kind of factory, and of course factory worker.

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