After reading this article, All I can say is Indian education is very much identical. Some kids here are pushed even more than this Chinese kid; a kid sister of my friend goes to private tuition so that she could pass the entrance test of another private tuition which takes in less students and trains them to write and pass the entrance exam of a reputed college in India (so in simple words, she is going through two…
I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
101–110 of 142 posts
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#102After reading this article, All I can say is Indian education is very much identical. Some kids here are pushed even more than this Chinese kid; a kid sister of my friend goes to private tuition so that she could pass the entrance test of another private tuition which takes in less students and trains them to write and pass the entrance exam of a reputed college in India (so in simple words, she is going through two…
With all due respect, your views and analysis are only relevant to the urban experience. "anyone who is slightly not retarded" does NOT land up a job in non-metros. Just visit a tier 2 city like Nashik (I am not even talking about proper rural areas) and see the employment opportunities there. At such places success stories abound of sons and daughters of lower middle class workers who cracked some competitive exam o…
And as was discussed in this forum a few days ago, teachers have the most important role to play in imparting good education and encouraging creativity and learning over marks. They can actually make a huge difference even with this current system.
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#103I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Chinese education system, coupled with discipline through fear works. I competed at last year's International Physics Olympiad (Viet Nam), who won? China, as usual. China starts preparation for the competition when their participants are just 8; they work ~16 hours a day on physics problems. The result? Winning with ease. You have, I all presume, read Gladwell's latest book…
It makes sense that if you measure success by the same yardstick that drives education, the more highly educated will win. The Physics Olympiad is testing basically the same skills that a typical high-school physics education in China teaches. Naturally they'd do well at it. The question is whether those skills are what makes a successful physicist. And I'd guess that they're only a small subset of the skills necessa…
It is no surprise that Indians do not show this stellar a performance in the IMO: the math sections of entrance examinations have little in common with IMO problems (exclusively multiple-choice, heavy on calculus; no Euclidean geometry and number theory).
The IOI situation is quite embarrassing. I've been invited to the national training camp. Most of my fellow competitors don't know jack about algorithms. They aren't even aware of some basic STL functions. Some wrote an O(n^2) sorting algorithm in the qualifying rounds, others memorized a quicksort implementation. But they seem to be good problem solvers, or perhaps a little mathematically-inclined; one of the problems for qualifying involved coming up with a recurrence in two variables and then optimizing the program with DP. Nevertheless, people should expect a lot more from a large country recognized as an "IT hub".
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#104After reading this article, All I can say is Indian education is very much identical. Some kids here are pushed even more than this Chinese kid; a kid sister of my friend goes to private tuition so that she could pass the entrance test of another private tuition which takes in less students and trains them to write and pass the entrance exam of a reputed college in India (so in simple words, she is going through two…
All parents would like to see their children 'well settled'. Unfortunately, in our (Indian) society as of now, ticket to a well settled life is still 'perceived' to be a degree from a top educational institute. It was true to an extent in the days before economic liberalization (1991), and this mindset would take some time to change. Rather than calling most of the pushy parents incompetent or reasoning them to be id…
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Test scores are like democracy, they're the least bad option. There's simply not a better way to measure progress, or one more accurate to life." There are so many different types of tests that your statement is essentially meaningless.
The OP was talking about teaching to tests, which generally means 12th grade proficiencies. No Child Left Behind has made that common practice. The proficiencies are more than anything designed to test the quality of a given school's education and measure their progress. School districts' federal (and often state) funding and various other things are determined by their results on those tests. My statement was that t…
How about other types of standardized tests that are non multiple choice?
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#106After reading this article, All I can say is Indian education is very much identical. Some kids here are pushed even more than this Chinese kid; a kid sister of my friend goes to private tuition so that she could pass the entrance test of another private tuition which takes in less students and trains them to write and pass the entrance exam of a reputed college in India (so in simple words, she is going through two…
At times, peer pressure is more compared to ones from parents, which more dangerous.
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
With all due respect, your views and analysis are only relevant to the urban experience. "anyone who is slightly not retarded" does NOT land up a job in non-metros. Just visit a tier 2 city like Nashik (I am not even talking about proper rural areas) and see the employment opportunities there. At such places success stories abound of sons and daughters of lower middle class workers who cracked some competitive exam o…
Well written. The 'real' India is indeed far bigger than 'non-retards' working in IT industry. And as was discussed in this forum a few days ago, teachers have the most important role to play in imparting good education and encouraging creativity and learning over marks. They can actually make a huge difference even with this current system.
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#108You know, I went to a top-tier private school in the US, followed by a top-tier private university, and I never understood the obsession with getting As in everything. I certainly wasn't, especially once at university, but I didn't feel like less of a person.Even in the US, there is a stereotype that Asian parents drive their kids in a similar manner, although I have never heard of them treating them like property li…
It is not Asians - it is most cultures where the parents are fairly poor and the children have a chance to succeed in life.
A second generation rich (well off) person will not work as hard as someone whose father is poor.
I doubt that the stressing and pressure that this guy is going trough is good - but the hard work that a lot of Chinese school children do is a good thing.
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your point is well taken, but "creative, effortful practice" also requires a foundation of creative and critical thinking. Like physics, critical thinking is a skill that should be learned and practiced, preferably from a young age and alongside your other training. One of the deficiencies in the Chinese educational system is that critical thinking simply isn't taught. The SOLE focus is consumption and rote regurgita…
and one thing I find strange is the incurious nature of many of the ... students. They've simply never been taught how to question things or contextualize knowledge. Sure, there are a few highly creative thinkers, but they've had to be entirely autodidactic. This sounds like every student body I've ever encountered anywhere in the world. Do you think the problem is worse in Beijing (what university?) than at Berkeley…
I'll agree with you that most people, everywhere, are incurious. That's not a China problem, it's a human problem. It's particularly striking, though, at schools like Beida, Tsinghua, and BNU.
The students at those schools are, quite literally, the best and the brightest that China has to offer. The selectivity for those schools is astounding, and your exam scores have to be off the charts. EVERYBODY wants to attend those schools, so every person at those schools had to beat out tens of thousands of competitors. They're wicked smart, definitely smarter than me and probably smarter than you. Driven, too. Think MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Harvard, and then turn it up a notch.
Despite the aggressive intellect of these students, I often get a feeling of... intellectual passiveness. I've got to be careful here, because I don't want to give the impression that people here are stupid or inferior. They're not. It's just that in conversation I often feel like I'm talking to someone who's never properly learned how to question things. That's surprising, especially when I'm talking to someone who is obviously both brilliant and ambitious.
There's always exceptions, and the cream will always naturally rise to the top. I'm sure people can produce a ton of counter-examples. Things are also (slowly) changing, as the internet is producing a new and vibrant intellectual forum. However, I think that any intellectual "spark" still has to be self-produced. The Chinese educational system is hostile to it, even at the higher levels.
Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doing well in the Physics Olympiad is not the same as doing well in physics. In the Physics Olympiad, you solve simple problems based on well-understood formulae. In physics, you create new knowledge. It may be telling that China has won only three physics Nobel prizes, and all three of the winners got their PhDs in the US. I admire your dedication to working hard on physics, but I think that creative, effortful prac…
Even if China's universities had developed first-class physics departments 30 years ago, you wouldn't see the effect in Nobel prizes yet. I guess you're referring to Daniel C. Tsui, Yáng Zhènníng, and Lǐ Zhèngdào. Yáng and Lǐ won their Nobel in 1957. Lǐ got his Ph.D. in the late 1940s; Yáng got his in 1942. China in the 1930s and 1940s was not only a desperately poor undeveloped country; it was also being invaded by…
Mao, of course, hated patriotism and China's past with a passion and did everything in his power to destroy its history. Shrines, historical landmarks (except ones dedicated to him), books about China's history -- all destroyed, all because they gave the Chinese a sense that there was more to China than Mao Tse Tung, something he couldn't tolerate. The students who tortured and murdered schoolteachers during the late sixties were from the Maoist (left-wing) of the Chinese Communist Party. They were the Red Guards, the vanguard of those carrying out Mao's orders to destroy the past.
My father-in-law was one of those people sent to the aforementioned prison camps, and it wasn't for being "unpatriotic". It was because he (a Communist most of his adult life) was branded a "right-winger" because he started becoming concerned with some of the small things wrought by the local socialism, like millions starving to death. His best friend was forced by the Maoists to inform on him, which (in different ways) destroyed both of them.
As for being "unpatriotic", my father-in-law (as I discovered during a recent trip there) is still remembered in Hubei province as a leader in the fight against the Japanese. A fight where he was wounded so badly he was literally left for dead and taken to the morgue area of a field hospital before someone noticed he was still breathing.
After his (guaranteed) conviction as a right-winger during the Cultural Revolution, he spent ten years having his health destroyed in the camps. He was allowed one egg a week for protein, often cooked in used motor oil.
My wife (born 1951) spent much of her childhood hungry all the time. For years. She, of course, was one of the lucky ones. Lucky, even though she got stung by bees a lot. This happened because she and her friends wanted, just occasionally, to taste something sweet. So they would catch bees and remove the stingers from them and squeeze tiny drops of sweetness into their mouths. This didn't get rid of the hunger pangs of course, but it gave them a small bit of pleasure.
A few months ago my wife had a intense nightmare. I comforted her for a bit and then, when she had calmed down, asked her what was wrong. She was deeply ashamed and refused to tell me at first, but I eventually convinced her that by describing the problem she would lessen its power. So she told me. And since there's some anonymity here, I'll tell you.
One day, when she was about nine years old, the hunger pains became too great for her and another little boy. So the boy caught the neighbor's cat and killed it. My wife helped him cook it and eat it. This was how my wife, as gentle a soul as you'll ever meet and a lover of animals, spent her girlhood. I wish that I could indulge, as kragen does, in a bit of historical revisionism and change her nightmares. I can't. She may go to her grave with her nightmares.
For those interested, I recommend the bestselling book _Mao: The Unknown Story_ by Jung Chang and historian Jon Halliday, a result of a decade of intense research. Chang's earlier bestseller _Wild Swans_ is also a great read. Based on many discussions with my wife and her friends (all about Chang's age and social class), I can vouch for its general validity.
My apologies (except to kragen) for the long and somewhat contentious post, but I hope you can understand the intensity of my emotion on this. The people who suffered these horrors need a voice, not lies.
Fuck communism.