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Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

signalbloom.ai

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Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#51
> But is the capability difference enough [..]

This is the (m/b)illion dollar question, isn't it? I think there's also a question of what do you think capability is exactly, and how the difference manifests itself.

On the one hand, when something becomes "good enough" that's a clear capability threshold. On the other hand, what's the limit of those capabilities, and equally as important, how does capability reflect on reliability?

We've seen "local models" lately improve on capabilities where they're "good enough" for some tasks. Reliability of solving those tasks is a bit harder to measure/benchmark/test. It'll get better as more people work with those models. But, something I've noticed in the past ~6months is that the frontier models are gaining a lot in both the breadth of capabilities, as well as the reliability of solving those tasks that they're capable of solving. I think this is where scaling (both compute and data) is showing, and where having more compute is simply better (more parallel exploration, more training data output, more broad data, etc).

There's also the problem of benchmarking true capabilities. The popular ones are getting old, and aren't as reliable as they used to be (not even touching on the subject of benchmaxxing, just thinking about their saturation, even with honest intentions).

So the question then becomes what will users prefer? Do you get the best of the best, or the one that's good enough? There might be a market for both, honestly. Not everyone does SotA stuff. And a lot of what people used to do in a company is probably mundane enough that a "good enough" model with "good enough" reliability can probably handle (w/ some supervision ofc).

What I'm more interested in is if things like Thaalas succeed and they get to provide local hardware that runs models "burned in silicon". That would be interesting, because speed and all the advantages of local models are a "quality" on their own. For example, right now I'd pay ~1k$ for an external hdd-sized block that can run a ~32B model that's popular right now, even knowing that it can only run that model. I have no idea if that's feasible or not, if it makes sense from a financial pov. But I'd buy one. And local inference on dedicated chips doesn't need to be "oss only". I'm sure oAI / etc would probably take the risk of licensing one of their -mini / -lite models provided that the risk of the weights leaking is small enough (and it probably is).

> This keeps a ceiling on how much or how fast the frontier labs can raise prices.

I generally agree, but from a different perspective. Up till now we've seen that the 3 labs influence each other's price points. When gpt5 came out at a radically smaller price, the others lowered them as well. Now with opus being SotA for coding, w/ 5.5 close behind, they've raised them back. Google seems to follow slowly. But there's hope that, being 3 top labs + 2 trailing (xAI & Meta), there'll be pressure once again. If any of those trailing labs manage to get to SotA again, the prices will drop once more. Some people say that open source also provides a pressure here, but I'm not yet convinced of this. There's still a question of who'll serve the models, at what scales, etc.

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has over 10x the number of data centers as China; and produces 2x more energy per capita than China.

what about energy consumption per capita?

What about it? Energy production basically has to equal energy consumption in the medium term, so if the grandparent comment is correct, it is 2x per capita.

Dunno how trustworthy this source is, but it says ~35 MWh/person in China and 77 MWh/person in USA.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#54
post #48

When discussing LLM pricing, people are missing the plot. The subscription token price is 10x-40x cheaper than API pricing. Your 90$ Claude subscriptions give you close to $1000 to $4000 in equivalent API token pricing. The second issue is that the quality of the model “operator” makes a massive difference in the outcomes. Highly skilled senior devs who know how to prompt and have high agency will outperform team peo…

> When discussing LLM pricing, people are missing the plot. [ ... snipped ...] Your 90$ Claude subscriptions give you close to $1000 to $4000 in equivalent API token pricing.

And you think it is unreasonable to consider this unsustainable?

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#55
post #28

I think this misses the forest for the trees. Working with ChatGPT is eerily similar to working with offshore Indian devs back in my enterprise days. Productive if guided explicitly but if let run wild there's lots of WTF moments. LLMs are likely to replace outsourced devs because your employees that know the context can use LLMs to do what offshore devs did before.

"offshore Indian devs" are no slouches. They have access to the same GPT models and likely cost a tenth of the median US salary. Businesses are always looking to lower marginal cost. They will hire 1 software architect in US to write specs and 10 software developers in India to babysit 100 agents.

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#56
For sure true for specialized ones like MedGemma (healthcare). In my testing, the 27b model is at least on the same level as frontier, and in some cases outperforms them. 4B is insanely good too for some lighter workloads. Thanks G for working on this!

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#57
post #12

The current closed source frontier models are more capable than the latest from DeepSeek. But is the capability difference enough to justify a 30x price difference? "Frontier models" are caught in a financial dilemma of their own making --- they have spent such huge sums on development and as a result, they may have inadvertently priced themselves out of the market. Energy costs are a huge factor for AI. He who has t…

Historically the winners in software have a flywheel that turns faster with more users. Facebook the more of your friends on it the better the product was. Google tracked how long users were on pages to improve search. The frontier models are going to win that way. They won't feed your code back into the system but they will track which code you keep and what code gets a "try again claude". They're not going to lose…

The marginal cost of AI is not 0. That's one of the big differences between this and older SaaS software. Inference costs a lot of money. Even if you're looking at just capital depreciation, it's quite expensive. I suppose it's more accurate to say marginal cost is stepwise - adding 1 new user is 0 cost if and only if your existing inference hardware covers that user's usage. As soon as you need a new server, adding _that_ new user costs ~$20k/year (assuming 100k server and 5 year depreciation).

This is true for traditional SaaS too, but the number of concurrent users that could be served by one machine and the cost of the hardware were both at least an order of magnitude better.

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#58

I've been pretty happy sticking with codex 5.4 medium. I don't see a good case for switching to 5.5 at the cost of going through my token budget quicker. There are misaligned incentives here between users just trying to get stuff done and AI companies competing on having the "smartest" model that passes benchmarks and continuously does some nobel peace price winning stuff. It's mostly overkill for the more mundane st…

I used to be on 5.4 high for most of my work. I have switched completely to 5.5 medium now. I would highly recommend trying it out

- 5.5 is significantly more token efficient than 5.4 - the same task takes often a third of the tokens

- because of this, is it also much faster to do the task

- you get high "intelligence" per token even after accounting for token efficiency - 5.5 medium is just under 5.4 pro levels of intelligence (imo). It has found tricky bugs for me that all other models failed at

So overall, ideally you will end up with more intelligent, faster model for slightly cheaper.

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#59
My friend is an exec at a US software company and they are preparing to lay off a few teams of programmers in their Eastern European locations and replacing them with a small number of US programmers + AI. He said they are much more productive and produce new features much faster.

Re: Outsourcing plus local AI will soon become more economical vs. frontier labs

#60
post #34
post #28

I think this misses the forest for the trees. Working with ChatGPT is eerily similar to working with offshore Indian devs back in my enterprise days. Productive if guided explicitly but if let run wild there's lots of WTF moments. LLMs are likely to replace outsourced devs because your employees that know the context can use LLMs to do what offshore devs did before.

How many of those wtf moments are simply from not “being in the room when it happened?” Most enterprise software is riddled with wtf moments demanded as one compromise or another.

At least some, but let me give an example.

Request: “manual step X should not be part of the automated build script”

Fulfilled as: build script is now split in two. X is still done as a manual step in between. Rather than prompting and waiting for it to be done, the documentation and scripts no longer mention X.

Part poorly written requirements, part implementing under pressure, and part lack of engineering discipline.

The main issue is catching stuff like this early enough to course-correct. Differences in time zone, language and cultural norms can make that a challenge, all of which LLMs have the advantage in.

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