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I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

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Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#71

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Chinese education system, coupled with discipline through fear works. I competed at last year's International Physics Olympiad (Viet Nam), who won? China, as usual. China starts preparation for the competition when their participants are just 8; they work ~16 hours a day on physics problems. The result? Winning with ease. You have, I all presume, read Gladwell's latest book…

It makes sense that if you measure success by the same yardstick that drives education, the more highly educated will win. The Physics Olympiad is testing basically the same skills that a typical high-school physics education in China teaches. Naturally they'd do well at it. The question is whether those skills are what makes a successful physicist. And I'd guess that they're only a small subset of the skills necessa…

Thank you for responding nostrademons.

I'll answer your second point as concisely as possible. First, I don't intend to demean creativity; in fact, I intend - at the moment, of course - to pursue a career in the philosophy of science. And philosophy, I hope we all agree, holds creativity and originality at its epicenter.

I merely state, as you do, that mastering the basic skills of physics is a "necessary condition" to becoming a great physicist. I, however, put a reasonable threshold of 10,000 hours on this mastery.

I intend to defend the position that these 10,000 of practice should be worked through as quickly as possible and as early as possible; alike how the Chinese high school system works. I think this is a reasonable position to take.

Note: I don't intend to comment on the positives/negatives Chinese education past this high school, i.e., university.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#72
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

miniature versions of this happen in american high schools (especially magnet high schoos), where the children of recent immigrants will have to deal with a parent being angry if they do not get A/A+'s in their coursework.

Again it usually happens when parents are not well educated. They only realize the importance of education, but they're not educated enough to evaluate their children's progress, so they often have to rely on the not always reliable association of good grades with good progress.

My dad's a Chem E. PH.D and has masters in CS and material science. He used to push me pretty hard about school...until his health deteriorated and he realized there are more important things in life.

Still, I appreciate the fact that he pushed me because now I'm a good student. Haha. Not to mention, I've found something I absolutely love (CS).

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#73
Education is a laudable value, but cruelty in service of a laudable value is still cruelty and still reprehensible. Also, grades are not a great way to measure learning.

I wish more of the rural poor in the US would tell their kids things like, "You should also learn from your cousin, talk to him more--then you will develop your mind." There are a minority who do, a large majority who don't care. I wish the stress I remember from US high schools had been from wanting to do better academically instead of fear of physical brutality from the other students.

If this guy's family is typical, China is going to do really well academically in the next few decades unless their government screws everything up again. And it's going to have to deal with a lot of traumatized young graduates.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing well in the Physics Olympiad is not the same as doing well in physics. In the Physics Olympiad, you solve simple problems based on well-understood formulae. In physics, you create new knowledge. It may be telling that China has won only three physics Nobel prizes, and all three of the winners got their PhDs in the US. I admire your dedication to working hard on physics, but I think that creative, effortful prac…

Thank you wwalker3 for your keen response; however, I going to have to both agree and disagree - cliché through it is. Doing well in the Physics Olympiad is a prerequisite to doing well in physics. Yes, I agree, creating knowledge requires a creative flare; however, I don't believe such heights can be achieved without first going through "the relentless drill". I'll use to example of literature to better illustrate m…

I agree that there should be sufficient drill, but it sounds like the Chinese have taken it too far, and are eating up time that might be more profitably spent learning more advanced theories.

I could spend a year practicing simple dynamics problems using F=ma and force diagrams if my goal is to do well in the Physics Olympiad. But if I want to be a physicist, most of that time would be better spent going on to Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics once I've got the basics solid.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#75

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Chinese education system, coupled with discipline through fear works. I competed at last year's International Physics Olympiad (Viet Nam), who won? China, as usual. China starts preparation for the competition when their participants are just 8; they work ~16 hours a day on physics problems. The result? Winning with ease. You have, I all presume, read Gladwell's latest book…

(1) A productive society is one with experts.

Not according to Henry Ford: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/hnfrd10.txt

If ever I wanted to kill opposition by unfair means I would endow the opposition with experts. [...]

None of our men are "experts." We have most unfortunately found it necessary to get rid of a man as soon as he thinks himself an expert--because no one ever considers himself expert if he really knows his job. A man who knows a job sees so much more to be done than he has done, that he is always pressing forward and never gives up an instant of thought to how good and how efficient he is. Thinking always ahead, thinking always of trying to do more, brings a state of mind in which nothing is impossible. The moment one gets into the "expert" state of mind a great number of things become impossible. [...]

As I have said, we do not hire experts--neither do we hire men on past experiences or for any position other than the lowest. [...]

It is particularly easy for any man who never knows it all to go forward to a higher position with us. [...]

There is not a single man anywhere in the factory who did not simply come in off the street. [...]

there is the pressing to take away the necessity for skill in any job done by any one. The old-time tool hardener was an expert. He had to judge the heating temperatures. It was a hit-or-miss operation. The wonder is that he hit so often. The heat treatment in the hardening of steel is highly important--providing one knows exactly the right heat to apply. That cannot be known by rule-of-thumb. It has to be measured. We introduced a system by which the man at the furnace has nothing at all to do with the heat. He does not see the pyrometer--the instrument which registers the temperature. Coloured electric lights give him his signals. [...]

The length of time required to become proficient in the various occupations is about as follows: 43 per cent. of all the jobs require not over one day of training; 36 per cent. require from one day to one week; 6 per cent. require from one to two weeks; 14 per cent. require from one month to one year; one per cent. require from one to six years. The last jobs require great skill--as in tool making and die sinking.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test scores are like democracy, they're the least bad option. There's simply not a better way to measure progress, or one more accurate to life.

"Test scores are like democracy, they're the least bad option. There's simply not a better way to measure progress, or one more accurate to life." There are so many different types of tests that your statement is essentially meaningless.

The OP was talking about teaching to tests, which generally means 12th grade proficiencies. No Child Left Behind has made that common practice.

The proficiencies are more than anything designed to test the quality of a given school's education and measure their progress. School districts' federal (and often state) funding and various other things are determined by their results on those tests.

My statement was that there isn't really a better metric. Does that explain it better?

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#77
post #12

You know, I went to a top-tier private school in the US, followed by a top-tier private university, and I never understood the obsession with getting As in everything. I certainly wasn't, especially once at university, but I didn't feel like less of a person.Even in the US, there is a stereotype that Asian parents drive their kids in a similar manner, although I have never heard of them treating them like property li…

I can't speak for other Asian countries, but I know China. From what you wrote, your experience and the experience of Zhang Rui (the high school student) couldn't be more different. I've recently had the wonderful and depressing experience of teaching in rural Chinese high schools, and it was an eye-opening experience. The pressure and stress on those kids is simply astounding.

Unfortunately for Zhang Rui, there is probably no more important single event in his life than taking the University Entrance Examination (高考, or GaoKao). There are really only two life paths before him, depending on his score.

If Zhang Rui gets a decently high score, then he can attend a large university in a city like Beijing or Shanghai. He will receive an urban residence permit, and a small stipend that he can use to live as a student. He'll receive a degree without much difficulty, and he should be able to get a good job. He can become a professional, he can go into government, he can become a writer, he's got a lot of options.

If Zhang Rui gets a low score, then he has few or no options. He lives in a remarkably poor region, even by Chinese standards, and his father is probably a peasant farmer (or something close). He's probably also got a rural registration, so he'll never be legally allowed to leave his village. He can either follow in his father's impoverished footsteps or become an undocumented migrant worker, sweating in a factory or hand-mixing concrete on a construction site.

Those are the choices. Zhang Rui might be able to skip university and still lead a full and interesting life, but the odds are hugely against it. He'll have to fight the system until the day he dies.

This is the harsh reality that Zhang Rui is facing, and it helps to put everything into context. His father and teachers know all these things, and so it's likely they've boiled it down to a cold binary decision: either little Zhang gets into university and brings the family out of poverty, or he's another worthless peasant stuck in Anhui. The only thing that matters is the score on the GaoKao. It's horrible, but not uncommon.

I sincerely hope that Zhang Rui overcomes the system without losing his soul (or his life). He sounds creative, strong, and insightful. China could use more voices like his.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#78
post #12

You know, I went to a top-tier private school in the US, followed by a top-tier private university, and I never understood the obsession with getting As in everything. I certainly wasn't, especially once at university, but I didn't feel like less of a person.Even in the US, there is a stereotype that Asian parents drive their kids in a similar manner, although I have never heard of them treating them like property li…

I can't speak for other Asian countries, but I know China. From what you wrote, your experience and the experience of Zhang Rui (the high school student) couldn't be more different. I've recently had the wonderful and depressing experience of teaching in rural Chinese high schools, and it was an eye-opening experience. The pressure and stress on those kids is simply astounding. Unfortunately for Zhang Rui, there is p…

Are some people in China really not legally allowed to leave their villages?

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#79
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for other Asian countries, but I know China. From what you wrote, your experience and the experience of Zhang Rui (the high school student) couldn't be more different. I've recently had the wonderful and depressing experience of teaching in rural Chinese high schools, and it was an eye-opening experience. The pressure and stress on those kids is simply astounding. Unfortunately for Zhang Rui, there is p…

Are some people in China really not legally allowed to leave their villages?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registra...

They can leave but can't legally hold a job without the right work permit.

Re: I was driven mad by the Chinese education system

#80
post #57
post #40

After reading this article, All I can say is Indian education is very much identical. Some kids here are pushed even more than this Chinese kid; a kid sister of my friend goes to private tuition so that she could pass the entrance test of another private tuition which takes in less students and trains them to write and pass the entrance exam of a reputed college in India (so in simple words, she is going through two…

Thank you for your fantastically insightful post!

Being from India, I couldn't agree more. Its sad that the culture and system does not change. They do not value individuality. Hopefully over time we'll start to see some positive change.
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