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The Eternal Sloptember

geohot.github.io

191–200 of 389 posts

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#191
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES. This line of thought is exactly why people are still skeptical of LLM's. LLM's are directionally right and if their answer "fits" then I take it at face value. I wrote a blog detailing the computational difference between "generation" and "verification" and why it matters for LLM's: https://simianwords.bearblog.dev/the-generation-vs-verificat... As an example: I asked the LLM "synonym for "provides" that also me…

People are skeptical of LLMs because the experiences they’ve had with LLMs. You can’t blog your way out those experiences. I’m skeptical because I’ve seen this exact situation and I’ve seen the result be something that anyone experienced wouldn’t do.

Sometimes I think folks having ‘experiences’ should play more poker.

The point is, it’s a game of chance and yet good players beat bad players in the long run. Your job in the new era of software engineering is to design the process so LLMs doing your code monkeying avoid the losses (including discarding bad changes) and take the wins. Win often enough and you’ll come out ahead.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#192
post #71

People misunderstand how AI is used in coding in normal work environments. New feature requirement comes - maybe you need a new service or some new classes. You need to do some research first. You guide the AI with some prompts and give it some guidance on how to scenario-test it. It makes some classes, test methods. Maybe ~2000 lines and you do a quick verification, check if the overall idea looks okay. Ask it to fi…

Yes, just throw 2kloc over the wall for some feature. Your coworkers must love you.

My coworkers don’t care, they’re doing the exact same thing.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#193
post #100

> It’s definitely a better Google for most searches I can't agree with this. You tend to get one point of view, often without any actual resources and references so you have to go look it up yourself, on [insert search engine]. Plus, what does it say when we consider an AI the one stop for our data intakes.

I find that it's typically better than Google search has been for a while, but not better than it's ever been.

More so tells me just how bad Google search has become and just how bad content in general has become.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#194

Why sloptember when it's may

It's a reference to Eternal September, the name applied to the cultural shift of the internet as the general public started gaining access to it en masse in the 90s.

Sloptember is clearly a reference to this - the similarity being that masses of AI generated content, from social media posts to open source contributions are replacing the human internet. In a way this is related to the "dead internet theory", an idea I previously found hard to believe, but these days could easily be true.

If the history of the internet interests you, both these are worth looking up.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#195
One under-discussed phenomenon here, I think:

The hardest thing in software engineering is solving the right problem. The ability to identify the right problem to solve, is IMO, what distinguishes the top senior engineers. And we could have endless discussions about what constitutes the right problem, but for the sake of this discussion, let's reduce it to: the problem whose resolution adds the most value to the product for the amount of complexity and afferent costs that it incurs.

Once upon a time, long ago, I worked on a Web product whose original junior designer had figured it would be neat to be able to manage the backend with LDAP tools. So the database schema and structure that the product used mimicked that of OpenLDAP, with compound CN keys, and the entire codebase had to deal with that structure whenever reading from or writing to the DB. LDAP compatibility was not the right problem to solve when designing the DB schema.

But software that solves the right problems can be hard to identify because, quite often, how it does things seems so obvious that it's not readily apparent what other designs might have been chosen.

Now, the thing that usually keeps the blast radius of wrong-problem designs limited over time, is the very friction that they introduce. Development slows down, including the development of more wrong-problem designs. It's a self-limiting phenomenon.

And that's one major thing which worries me about LLM coding agents:

They paper over this friction. They don't repair it; they just make it so its cost is deferred.

So you gradually end up with codebases that grow unboundedly complex for the value they provide, with no controlling mechanisms.

You end up with juniors who never face the feedback loop from which they'd develop the engineering instincts and the taste for what makes a problem the right problem to solve in a given design.

At scale, as a field, you might end up forgetting there ever was such a thing as solving the right problem.

And I don't know what to do about that. Plan for an early retirement, maybe.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#196

But each time I suspected I could have done it better and faster manually There is a class of tasks that can't be done faster manually, unless you're some sort of colour-smells-like-chicken-and-numbers-have-taste genius. And there is other class (my suspicion now is any non-standard task+framework) that are slower than using agents. So I can imagine you have excellent experience with some tasks like USB hacking and w…

It all depends on the code quality bar. If it's high, a lot of tasks will not be completed much faster. The main speed comes from trusting LLMs output. When you review each change and reprompt LLMs to make the code look like you want. Suddenly, things become much slower and reviews/reprompts are very mentally exhausting.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#197
post #160
post #74

I think a lot of the problem with the current discourse is how black-and-white it is. Either you're a luddite or "ai pilled". In most cases, LLMs can get you 80-95% of the way, sometimes less, sometimes more. And heck, sometimes, it just gets you somewhere wrong. But it seems everyone is arguing about whether LLMs can be perfect software engineers in isolation running in a closet, and using that to say that LLMs do n…

It's funny, but the more I know about the true Luddites, the more I see their point of view. " the original Luddites were primarily protesting against machinery used to "fraudulently and deceitfully" manufacture inferior goods, bypass labor standards, and strip skilled artisans of their livelihoods."

Goods are usually (although not always) inferior when made by a machine. A hand-crafted solid wood table is still superior to something from Ikea.

Of course hand made tables are expensive. They service a sliver of the market. Ikea serves the rest of us who'd prefer not to eat off the floor.

Fundamentally, Luddites didn't like being replaced by a machine. They were skilled workers, who used to have very desirable skills. Most people didn't need their standard of quality (but customers had no choice.)

Their name is well known today because we never stopped replacing people with machines. Every industry as been "optimized" over and over again since the Luddite times.

AI is the first threat to the Artisans of today (ie programmers). We are just the most recent in a long history of Luddites.

In every change of this nature, some move on embracing the change, others do not. Some will find other jobs, possibly new jobs, others won't. Carriage drivers became Chauffeurs, some grooms became mechanics.

So sure, I'm a Luddite - I don't want to see my skills become cheap - but I'm also pragmatic. The change is here. I'd rather adapt than die.

Re: The Eternal Sloptember

#198
post #69

Wonder if LLMs in autoreasearch loops would be able to complete tasks geohot has in mind in say 100x average token budget. If the answer is yes, the argument doesn’t matter: you just run the loop and wait for llm analog of moore’s law to get costs down.

Loops make the code even worse. The more local the changes, the better LLMs at it.
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