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Changing times for web developers

amazedsaint.com

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Re: Changing times for web developers

#111

Post by Joeri »

johnyzee wrote: post #54

This is against the grain, but it is obvious to me that the way forward for web development is to rise above Javascript and simple DOM mangling, which is what most of these popular tools assist with. Javascript does not scale complexity and manipulating DOM elements directly is both error-prone and a lousy programming paradigm. We need something in between that offers a sane development model and deals with the compl…

The DOM is indeed too low-level. We need higher-level components, and the ability to develop custom components. We also need a way to firewall segments of a page, so we can reason about it at a higher level of abstraction. This technology is coming, it's called shadow dom ( http://glazkov.com/2011/01/14/what-the-heck-is-shadow-dom/ ).

I've been developing a 100.000 line single page javascript app for the past few years. You can't build an app like that if you code at the level of dom elements. Encapsulation and abstraction is essential. Because the shadow dom didn't exist i used extjs as a crude alternative (extjs's component framework is really nice, but the dom structure it produces is ugly). However, with shadow dom I can imagine a way of writing javascript in the large without needing the heavy abstraction layer that extjs provides.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#112

Post by amazedsaint »

mddw wrote: post #11

I'm always amazed to see how people who give advice (and good ones in this case) are totally unable to follow them on their websites. 296 http requests. 1.85mb transfered. Yslow grade D. So yeah, these are good advices. In fact, the OP should follow 'em if he wants to "survive".

I had my disclaimer, lol. As I already clarified some where else, these points are what I learned from what I was doing in the last few years, consulting for my customers modernizing their web sites/apps. And thanks for the advice, in fact I'm surviving pretty well ;)

Re: Changing times for web developers

#114

Post by randomdata »

mmaunder wrote: post #9

Agree with half, but don't worry about: JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet. Optimization: Sure, but don't preoptimize so rather go looking for the tools once your app tells you it's slow. Also minified JS is great to save a tiny bit of bandwidth and obfuscate, but damn it's a pain to debug your live site.

MVC in JS is almost always overkill.

I disagree. The last thing you want is JS spaghetti, no matter how small or simple your pages may be. Full MVC frameworks like, say, Backbone, are usually overkill, but I haven't seen many web pages with JS that couldn't use MVC patterns in some capacity.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#115

Post by napoleond »

jfaucett wrote: post #51
ceautery wrote: post #49

A couple of reactions: You guys seem to hate each other a lot, and love javascript frameworks. Me, I've tried to snipe at my fellows a lot less on sites like this, which has improved my online experience, and I prefer to learn standards over frameworks. The kind of discussion going on here is reminiscent of old timey C vs. java vs. perl, or maybe vi vs. emacs slashdot discussions from the late 90s: pointless. Focus o…

"For the comments about the web not being ready for HTML5 yet because it is too young: nonsense" Although your personal experience may backup this assumption, it simply isn't true when you look at the stats : http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-monthly-201110...

What aspect of HTML5 isn't yet ready for mainstream? JS polyfills make almost all of it possible for the ~4% of global IE7 users (according to the site above... no idea how accurate it is). Just using modernizer, json2.js, and underscore enables about 90% of the HTML5 feature set for IE7. Raphael, excanvas (or whatever) and accepting the lack of drop-shadows/rounded corners in shitty browsers make up the rest.

Seriously. 99.9% of the time it's possible to develop in "HTML5" and drop in a few conditional comments that load extra libraries for IE 7.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#116

Post by rmason »

johnyzee wrote: post #54

This is against the grain, but it is obvious to me that the way forward for web development is to rise above Javascript and simple DOM mangling, which is what most of these popular tools assist with. Javascript does not scale complexity and manipulating DOM elements directly is both error-prone and a lousy programming paradigm. We need something in between that offers a sane development model and deals with the compl…

Or how about Flex itself as an independent open source Apache project?

http://incubator.apache.org/flex/

Re: Changing times for web developers

#117

Post by Joeri »

yen223 wrote: post #106
Toshio wrote: post #2

I couldn't help but notice the self-aggrandizing "most valuable professional evah" logo front-and-center on this guy's blog, so I feel compelled to add the 7th tip to his list. Here goes. #7 - Learn the value of humility.

I have learnt the true value of humility: it gets you nowhere.

Humility makes you better at your job, but in many places it will prevent you from developing that job into a career.

Humility is what makes us recognize the weaknesses in our skill and knowledge, and what makes us seek feedback from others to hone that skill. I'm convinced that not being self-satisfied is key to becoming a master craftsmen. But, if you don't advertise your own skill, people will think less of you than you really are, and you won't get the jobs that you really want.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#118

Post by saraid216 »

amazedsaint wrote: post #91
mmaunder wrote: post #9

Agree with half, but don't worry about: JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet. Optimization: Sure, but don't preoptimize so rather go looking for the tools once your app tells you it's slow. Also minified JS is great to save a tiny bit of bandwidth and obfuscate, but damn it's a pain to debug your live site.

About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together. HTML5 - My point was, understand the parts you can use now. Optimization - Again, do it when you are ready to do it.

> About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together.

But is MVC the right pattern all the time? I really doubt it.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#119

Post by kyrra »

natural219 wrote: post #99
johnyzee wrote: post #54

This is against the grain, but it is obvious to me that the way forward for web development is to rise above Javascript and simple DOM mangling, which is what most of these popular tools assist with. Javascript does not scale complexity and manipulating DOM elements directly is both error-prone and a lousy programming paradigm. We need something in between that offers a sane development model and deals with the compl…

I agree with the gist or your post, but as others have pointed out, GWT is essentially depricated and really not the right direction to go. I think the angle that TypeScript is taking may prove to be more fruitful.

Google is no longer leading GWT. it is run by a committee of companies that have deep vested interest in the toolkit. Google is still on this committee, but they no longer have the same number of resources working on it.

Re: Changing times for web developers

#120

Post by jfaucett »

napoleond wrote: post #115
jfaucett wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For the comments about the web not being ready for HTML5 yet because it is too young: nonsense" Although your personal experience may backup this assumption, it simply isn't true when you look at the stats : http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-monthly-201110...

What aspect of HTML5 isn't yet ready for mainstream? JS polyfills make almost all of it possible for the ~4% of global IE7 users (according to the site above... no idea how accurate it is). Just using modernizer, json2.js, and underscore enables about 90% of the HTML5 feature set for IE7. Raphael, excanvas (or whatever) and accepting the lack of drop-shadows/rounded corners in shitty browsers make up the rest. Seriou…

maybe it depends on how you view the specs, but I think what most people mean by HTML5 is the full spectrum of new features outside markup that enable app building, ie. filesystem API, Websockets, web workers, webgl, etc, which is to no where near getting a 90% coverage even by using tons of shims/libs. just browse this site to see how far along HTML5 is: http://caniuse.com/
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