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DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

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Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#381

Post by coliveira »

zrtac wrote: post #316
Nifty3929 wrote: post #306

China may be subsidizing this for now in a way that US companies can't or won't - but if they keep building power infrastructure and the US doesn't, then it will no longer require subsidy from them. It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China. China is building for the future, while Western Democracies are afraid of the future, and of their own shadow.

That is the talking point of OpenAI and a16z's super PAC: https://www.wired.com/story/super-pac-backed-by-openai-and-p... "Build American AI, a nonprofit linked to a super PAC bankrolled by executives at OpenAI and Andreessen Horowitz, is funding a campaign to spread pro-AI messaging and stoke fears about China." In reality Xi has warned of AI bubbles. If China was really pushing it they'd be equal or ahead because s…

This is the next phase of the OpenAI deception: give us as much money as we want or you'll be labeled anti-US and pro-China (guaranteed by the propaganda arm of openAI).

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#382

Post by api »

fridder wrote: post #360
toddmorey wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like the US for years has operated under the assumption that homeostasis for the global economy would always be “designed in California, assembled in China.” Like there was something in the American DNA that was lacking in China and innovation would always need to happen here. But China it seems doesn’t need the US to produce great cars, devices, robotics, or AI. We absolutely need China to help us build all…

Might be more far to say: they needed the US until they caught up. The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here. Though theft might be too strong since a lot of companies knew what they were getting in to

The US committed massive IP theft in the 19th century when we industrialized.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#383

Post by coliveira »

skiing_crawling wrote: post #377
nicbou wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To many of us, American models are also foreign-hosted, and in an increasingly hostile nation.

I guess I was speaking as an American, we have good domestically hosted options so although it’s probably not ideal to send this kind of data/control anywhere at all, it’s definitely a worse option for us to send it to china vs to an American company. Every user of this service has made their machines trivially exposed to become a botnet. Im wondering why I don’t see this angle more discussed in here. Again I’m not s…

As an American you should probably not trust them, because the giant American company has way more (legal or semi-legal) opportunities to manipulate your life than a Chinese one.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#384

Post by bix6 »

seviu wrote: post #376
bryanlarsen wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is foundational to pretty much everything. Cheap power is going to give China a massive advantage in everything; AI is just incidental.

Cheap power at what cost for our planet? Not long ago we were crying death to bitcoin, it’s going to destroy the planet. Come AI, with unlimited power demand. Everybody screaming we need more power. We need infrastructure, clean energy, even nuclear. We are doing all in the wrong order.

China is the leader in solar?

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#385

Post by Aeolos »

skiing_crawling wrote: post #377
nicbou wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To many of us, American models are also foreign-hosted, and in an increasingly hostile nation.

I guess I was speaking as an American, we have good domestically hosted options so although it’s probably not ideal to send this kind of data/control anywhere at all, it’s definitely a worse option for us to send it to china vs to an American company. Every user of this service has made their machines trivially exposed to become a botnet. Im wondering why I don’t see this angle more discussed in here. Again I’m not s…

On the other hand, an American company can sell your chats to adtech/insurance/your government in ways that can harm you quite directly. Something worth considering.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#386

Post by toddmorey »

fridder wrote: post #360
toddmorey wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like the US for years has operated under the assumption that homeostasis for the global economy would always be “designed in California, assembled in China.” Like there was something in the American DNA that was lacking in China and innovation would always need to happen here. But China it seems doesn’t need the US to produce great cars, devices, robotics, or AI. We absolutely need China to help us build all…

Might be more far to say: they needed the US until they caught up. The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here. Though theft might be too strong since a lot of companies knew what they were getting in to

Ok, not my favorite narrative, but assume asymmetric application of intellectual property rights was a big factor. Wouldn't the US exploiting asymmetric labor wages, rights, and conditions be the even bigger story? It still feels like a short-sighted own goal. The US abandoned its ability to manufacture. Maybe dark factories and robotics can bring it back, but manufacturing supply chains are just so much more advanced in Asia than in the US.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#387

Post by jdcasale »

delfinom wrote: post #356
toddmorey wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like the US for years has operated under the assumption that homeostasis for the global economy would always be “designed in California, assembled in China.” Like there was something in the American DNA that was lacking in China and innovation would always need to happen here. But China it seems doesn’t need the US to produce great cars, devices, robotics, or AI. We absolutely need China to help us build all…

Propaganda. We americans ate that shit up. There's nothing special about anything we design in the US other than time and money commitment to create it. China did have some espionage of course going on, but the vast majority of shit isn't some secret. And with the US shitting on China with restrictions, we increasingly caused them to invest time and money into things they otherwise would have passively accepted as co…

It's both.

The US has generally resorted to propaganda rather than addressing the self-inflicted structural conditions responsible for the erosion of our dominance. China also conducted a broad, sustained, large-scale campaign of IP theft across almost every industry.

Obviously there is no natural law preventing China from innovating (We have treated political liberalism as a prerequisite to innovation in a way that was always partly self-congratulatory), but it's also obviously true that the speed of the gap closure is due in significant part to theft.

That doesn't change the fact that they are now a legitimate competitor who has gotten a lot of things right (and among these, some things that we get very wrong) and probably actually leads in some areas.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#388

Post by FabCH »

seviu wrote: post #376
bryanlarsen wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is foundational to pretty much everything. Cheap power is going to give China a massive advantage in everything; AI is just incidental.

Cheap power at what cost for our planet? Not long ago we were crying death to bitcoin, it’s going to destroy the planet. Come AI, with unlimited power demand. Everybody screaming we need more power. We need infrastructure, clean energy, even nuclear. We are doing all in the wrong order.

China added 315GW of solar in 2025.

For context, EU added 65 and US 43.

In one year, China _added_ almost the total capacity EU has.

China is the one place where AI actually can use clean energy…

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#389

Post by themafia »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #306

China may be subsidizing this for now in a way that US companies can't or won't - but if they keep building power infrastructure and the US doesn't, then it will no longer require subsidy from them. It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China. China is building for the future, while Western Democracies are afraid of the future, and of their own shadow.

> then it will no longer require subsidy from them

Is there actually a huge Chinese consumer market for these products? If not then I'm not sure how you ever actually achieve this endpoint. Chinese wages and American wages are not nearly the same thing yet.

> It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China.

It will simply create more pollution and environmental destruction too.

> China is building for the future

That's the plan. Whether that's true requires an honest analysis.

> while Western Democracies are afraid of the future

Developed nations take fewer risks than undeveloped ones. Do you assume this pitched dichotomy will naturally sustain itself?

> and of their own shadow.

Yea, it's funny what having open and fair elections can do for a country.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#390

Post by ssivark »

pcwelder wrote: post #300

None of the deepseek models are multimodal. How are you guys able to use it in daily work without image input? For example it's just so natural to share screenshots in a chat.

...like how we were using LLMs just a little while ago?

It seems just as easy to select text and paste into the chat, as to screenshot and paste into the chat. At least when not on phone, eg doing coding.

But YMMV if you're doing visual design. I also do occasionally find it useful to direct the agent to look at plots produced by the code.

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