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Introducing GNU Guix

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91–100 of 113 posts

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because you predict it won't meet your definition of popularity? Once upon a time, Arch and Gentoo were dismissed in exactly this way.

Arch and Gentoo are still tiny fractions of the linux install base (which is itself a tiny fraction of users), and are mostly irrelevant.

Unless you feel that those that write software have more influence in the direction of the community than those who just apt-get/yum install it.

Then they are a small fraction of users but are not irrelevant.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#92
Both GNU Guix and Nix seem like excellent steps forward in bringing sanity to package management. Does anyone know if puppet, chef, salt and similar configuration management tools were inspired by these projects? At a cursory glance, e.g., there are some striking similarities in the DSLs of NixOS and Puppet.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#93
post #86
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU Hurd?

Ah, I was unnecessarily flippant; stopped paying much attention to it in the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd#GNU_distributions_run... So what would be a compelling technical or business reason to use this, either now or when they get to wherever they're going? I suppose it would be great for study.

> I suppose it would be great for study.

Does anyone still care that much about microkernels, which were the standard design for state-of-the-art OSes back in the 1980s?

Seems like research now is focused on VMs, which do have a current business use, just like they have for decades now.

The Hurd is, at least from the outside, a 1980s design that failed to catch on in the 1980s and is now a solution looking for a problem. At least the userspace intended to go with the Hurd proved to be high-quality and very widely usable.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#94
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You break the idea of a declarative package by doing this you can have side effects that modify or mess with anything. This means I cannot update a package reliably when it's updated because it may or may not change something.

Homebrew packages are Ruby files, and in practice this doesn't seem to be a problem.

Almost any programming language can be declarative, the problem is it allows logic as well as having a whole programming language installed instead of a simple parser.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're not necessarily wrong, "ego" gives off a pretty negative vibe. I would say it's quite often personal dissatisfaction of the status quo. I support what they are doing. Wheels sometimes get better when they are reinvented.

I'm not one to declare other people's motivation, but it strikes me as very odd that there isn't a "So, here's what's irreparably wrong with dpkg/apt and rpm/yum".

it's fixing a (real or perceived) problem with nix, not with dpkg or rpm.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#96
post #30
post #16

Can someone explain what benefits do I get for using this rather than the package manager offered by my distribution? And do you need root access to install guix? Because if you do then > unprivileged package management seems quite, well, useless imho. If on the other hand everything in guix lives in the userland, I can see myself using it in the servers I don't have root-access to..

It does feel a bit like it can become a platform independent alternative to something like Cygwin. Along the lines of ActiveState perl, but a whole GNU environment instead.

i wonder if userdir-based language package managers like rvm, cabal and opam can profitably rebase themselves atop guix.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#97
post #13

> A distribution built by GNU hackers is a great opportunity to improve consistency and cohesion in GNU! Because the existing fragmentation of GNU package management is too confusing, so we need a new standard for everyone to rally round. [ http://xkcd.com/927/ ]

Or, as it was told in "The Zen of Programming":

-----

Hearing a disturbance, the master programmer went into the novice's cubicle.

"Curse these personal computers!" cried the novice in anger, "To make them do anything I must use three or even four editing programs. Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files. This is truly intolerable!"

The master programmer stared at the novice. "And what would you do to remedy this state of affairs?" he asked.

The novice thought for a moment. "I will design a new editing program," he said, "a program that will replace all these others."

Suddenly the master struck the novice on the side of his head. It was not a heavy blow, but the novice was nonetheless surprised. "What did you do that for?" exclaimed the novice.

"I have no wish to learn another editing program," said the master.

And suddenly the novice was enlightened.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#98
post #93
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I was unnecessarily flippant; stopped paying much attention to it in the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd#GNU_distributions_run... So what would be a compelling technical or business reason to use this, either now or when they get to wherever they're going? I suppose it would be great for study.

> I suppose it would be great for study. Does anyone still care that much about microkernels, which were the standard design for state-of-the-art OSes back in the 1980s? Seems like research now is focused on VMs, which do have a current business use, just like they have for decades now. The Hurd is, at least from the outside, a 1980s design that failed to catch on in the 1980s and is now a solution looking for a prob…

Yes, people still care for microkernels, particularly in research, security, embedded systems. The developments didn't end in 1980 and are still going on now. What's interesting is that some of those kernels from the 1980s were architecturally superior to the commercial OSes used today. It's really a mistake to discount the technical advantages of these kernels due to lack of popularity.

The main problem with them is simply lack of manpower. Research usually means that older solutions are replaced with the new, which leads to a lot of wasted effort where those changes aren't backward compatible. There's also the huge effort to keep kernels up to date with hardware, and to port over the thousands of software packages that people typically uses in day-to-day activities.

That's perhaps the real advantage of the current popular kernels - they have a strong requirement for stability and introducing breaking changes is out of the question. It's a propagating effect too, due to the many layers of dependencies we have - modifying the lowest layer, the kernel, has the biggest overall effect on the entire operating system.

That's why the current VM (or chroot/jail/namespace) solutions are being pushed and researched - because they bring some of the advantages of the microkernel design to modern computers, but don't completely break everything. A graphical application in user space for example, shouldn't care whether it's running in a VM or on the metal, it only cares about it's dependencies.

>The Hurd is, at least from the outside, a 1980s design that failed to catch on in the 1980s and is now a solution looking for a problem.

The Hurd is still a problem, rather than a solution. It's original goal is by part a failure because of design problems in the Mach microkernel. There's attempts to put Hurd on other microkernels, which has pushed Hurd more into a research position, but there's certainly things to learn from the history of the project on how not to create an OS on a microkernel. It's also not the only project still running with a microkernel design (see HelenOS, Genode etc).

And it's not like the research is completely wasted even if these projects don't gain popularity - as some of their features make it into mainstream kernels. A good example is FUSE (Filesystem in userspace) on linux - which allows people to experiment with filesystems without hacking on the kernel or requiring additional privileges.

But whether a microkernel design will ever become mainstream is a different question. The sheer amount of work to port applications over makes it seem unlikely - although good design of open source software will make the effort significantly easier. It's unfortunate that we seem to be heading in the opposite direction though, with key players in the open source world pushing for a monotonous ecosystem around linux/systemd et al, even excluding working kernels like the BSDs.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#99

The Linux community needed this around 15 years ago when Windows 98 came out. Now we've got .deb and .rpm which do the job perfectly well. It's even better nowadays, as well, since their existence is effectively hidden from the user thanks to package managers. Too little, way too late.

Ironically, this Guix thing would be perfect... for Windows.

Right now, I have to maintain my own list of GnuWin32 installers (wget coreutils cygutils diffutils findutils grep gzip less patch sed tar unzip) retrieved from sf.net, with a 30 lines batch script to deploy them, plus a powershell command to retrieve wget as the first step.

Re: Introducing GNU Guix

#100
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when there is no clear answer to this in a FOSS project, I think it's safe to assume the answer is ego.

What relation would you say ego has to scratching one's own itch?

I think the concepts are intertwined, if you are going to scratch your own itch and then release it for the rest of the world to scratch theirs.

"We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris." — Larry Wall

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