Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 382 posts

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#281

Post by soupbowl »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #40
briga wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Albertan/Western Canadian identity is totally a thing, and has been around for a lot longer than this latest round of separatist sentiment. The west has been griping about unfair treatment from the federal government for over a century now, so 1) this isn't primarily driven by foreign interference and 2) it's not coming out of nowhere. Whether it's a good idea is a different question. I doubt most Albertans want to b…

Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.

It is certainly a 'thing'. Saying it is not just shows your ignorance.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#282

Post by 52-6F-62 »

briga wrote: post #62
52-6F-62 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.

If you don't think it's a thing then you're either not from here, or haven't been paying attention. The average Canadian's opinion of Alberta is also very telling, with most of the rest of the country seeming to despise the province, or think it's some sort of regressive backwater.

Since you decided to take things in a personal direction, yes. I have lived and worked in Alberta. I have had family in Alberta. I have friends in Alberta. My partner is from the west, and we visit regularly.

That's some bad karma, pretending you can read someone like that and attempting to beat them down with your ignorance and then claim to be a victim.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#283

Post by userbinator »

BiraIgnacio wrote: post #229

The referendum is actually about having a referendum first. "Alberta to hold fall referendum on whether to have binding referendum on separating from Canada" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-r...

Classic bureaucracy.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#284

Post by rirze »

rirze wrote: post #138

Incoming Canadian Civil War?

Jeez, the number of replies taking this as a knock on current political divide is saddening.

If anyone remembers middle school history, the American civil war was ignited by the North refusing to accept Southern secession. Should've made it more obvious, I guess.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#285

Post by 52-6F-62 »

8note wrote: post #245
52-6F-62 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.

Toronto is much much younger than alberta, formed by the government of ontario if age is a disqualifying factor, hating on toronto cant be a fundamental part of the canadian identity

If you are Canadian, you should be familiar with the running nation-wide joke that "everyone hates Toronto".

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#286

Post by PowerElectronix »

hash872 wrote: post #234
d_burfoot wrote: post #211

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

OK, but there are some logistical issues here- let's say Alberta votes to secede and this is somehow legally viable. All of the Albertan voters who didn't want to secede- including the native tribes- could then by your rules vote to secede from Alberta and join back to Canada. It'd be a mess. Towns and counties would split themselves in half, and so on. What would happen if a landlocked town within Alberta wants to r…

It's like having to belong to a higher imposed authority (either the original country or the seceded territory) is bad for the individual that doesn't want any of that. If only there was a solution to that problem...

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#287

Post by xboxnolifes »

triceratops wrote: post #273
xboxnolifes wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one draw new political borders that way? There is practically zero unclaimed land.

You move someplace that aligns with your preferences.

And if there arent? Why are existing nation lines static?

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#288

Post by 52-6F-62 »

soupbowl wrote: post #281
52-6F-62 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.

It is certainly a 'thing'. Saying it is not just shows your ignorance.

I am aware of recent political movements, yes. Like the Western Independence Party.

However, they failed to even get enough signatures to properly form. Their platform is to "basically remove Alberta from confederation" (the party founder's words). But note: there was no Alberta before confederation.

Alberta business owners having a beef with Ottawa leadership is not the same as a common and foundational identity across Alberta that desires independence. That latter notion is in the extreme minority. Fringe stuff. For instance, the support between the WIP (and aligned groups) is similar to the support for the province's Communist parties.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#289

Post by Supermancho »

close04 wrote: post #237
belval wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but I have trouble with the framing. Referendum votes are >50%. If a foreign nation can get >50% of the Albertans to agree to something, that's still democracy. Yes it feels wrong for the US to be giving money to influencers to influence the vote, but it's not like those voters are being coerced. In their opinion, Alberta would be better as a separate country. Whether that opinion is enlightened or not has no…

A foreign adversary only has to convince or “add” the difference needed to reach 50%. It never starts at 0. I can’t blanket agree that “it’s their opinion after all” because fraud works the same way. The victim willingly triggers their own loss but after being deceived. Brexit shows the works, almost half the supporters feel like they got the bait and switch, being promised one thing and then getting another. But thi…

> The victim willingly triggers their own loss but after being deceived

So wrapping up the process in another layer of "informed individuals" is another form of government that is even easier to manipulate, because there are fewer of them.

There is no self-protection or those who are incidentally manipulated by forgoing their own responsibility. ie Manufactured Consent. This sentiment (albeit articulated differently) is why wealth inequality has become such a hot topic in the US. It's blatant that if it's many or few, it makes little difference within US politics. Billionaires can afford the influence to make the decisions. That's the game.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#290

Post by 52-6F-62 »

cf100clunk wrote: post #137
52-6F-62 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.

A huge amount of academic research into ''western alienation'' has been, and continues to be, researched at Canadian universities. The concept is bedrock to studies of Canadian history and political science.

I understand this. I lived there, I heard the "Onterrible" jokes and wore them with grace.

The concept of an independent Alberta as an identity is a fringe matter, not equivalent with generalized notions of alienation and grievances related to equivalence within confederation on a policy level.

Post reply on HN