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Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

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Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#171

Post by tomhow »

DontBreakAlex wrote: post #86
ethanrutherford wrote: post #17

This makes me feel physically ill. It's like something straight out of a sci-fi dystopia, how did this get approved? Who determined that reinjecting biological activity into a human brain is definitely not some form of reanimation? If they're using heavy sedation to prevent electrical activity, is that not tacit admission they're not 100% sure that consciousness might return otherwise? How did this pass ethics review…

[flagged]

Please don't fulminate on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#172

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #144
andy99 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a dentist explain to me the same for getting my wisdom teeth out, as if it was a selling feature. At least for me, having my memory wiped is far more scary than just being put unconscious (or having some pain and a local anaesthetic).

A colleague warned me of the same when I was having my wisdom teeth removed. As a result, while I was being put under, I was very focused on the effects of the anaesthetic. I feel about as confident as one can be that I was completely unconscious during the entire operation. I remember the surgeon asking me to count to ten, and the specific feeling of my vision melting and swirling around, before suddenly waking up w…

Similar for me, although I did not realise I had gone under. I counted to ten, and when I reached ten I opened my eyes and was in a different room and the surgery was over. Very weird!

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#173

Post by 47282847 »

ywain wrote: post #100
rendx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to stop there. We can also turn it around, and I can ask you for any paper that details the theory of why the brain should be the location of consciousness. I only gave one example and Wikipedia to start with. There's a lot of material out there if you're (rightfully) skeptical of that one paper. I don't even know what you're refering to as "their theory", as the way I read it, they're basically documenti…

Sure. We can't even agree on a good definition for "consciousness", we certainly don't know _how_ it works. I don't think there's a lot of debate around that specific point. I'll try and read the paper more carefully after work, but my quick read was: they posit that consciousness might not be localized in the brain because if it were, then how would people be able to perform telepathy / remote viewing / future fores…

Agreed. I don’t consider what they present as “evidence”. But that doesn’t turn it into evidence against the theories either. There are other theories that explain “out of body experiences”. We just don’t know. There doesn’t seem to be convincing enough evidence to make the case for “the brain is where consciousness resides”, nor is there against it.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#174

Post by cogman10 »

rendx wrote: post #165
cogman10 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still an open debate No it's not, not by anyone serious. We know the brain is the seat of consciousness because damage to the brain damages consciousness. There is no other organ in the body where that's true. You can completely replace all other organs without changing consciousness. You can always find a paper by a quack that posits the earth is flat, that doesn't mean there's serious debate.

Can you point me to a paper or other source that proves that the brain is the seat of consciousness? Or that disproves other theories? I am familiar with the works of Oliver Sacks, Paul Broks, and others, who have spent their lives researching damage to brains and the potential consequences for the psyche. I agree that it sounds like damage to the brain can have big impact, but none of that research, as far as I am a…

Three are a million case studies and studies on it. So much so that you'll find studies on the best ways to repair consciousness after traumatic brain injuries [1].

You can't find a single case study where someone's consciousness was notably altered due to bowel resection. Something that has happened all the time.

Where are the people losing or having alerted consciousness after having their stomachs stapled? Their perforated bowels resected? Their bowel cancer polyps removed?

The closest you'll find is soldiers suffering from, understandable, PTSD.

Also, I'd point out that the studies you referenced aren't suggesting your point. They are saying that the gut can affect our mood and cravings. But as anyone that's taken a powerful antibiotic can attest, that did not modify their consciousness even though it nuked a huge portion of their biome.

People also get fecal transplants, they don't share consciousness as a result.

Unless you want to define consciousness as an eternal soul that exists in rocks, then you'll find no support for the suggestion that it exists outside a brain.

You also need to explain why it is that traumatic brain injuries alter consciousness and memory. Why it is that we can observe physical changes in the brains of dementia patients.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2931585/

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#175

Post by TurdF3rguson »

TurdF3rguson wrote: post #101
VectorLock wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thoughts "but won't i feel it THEN?" when I was getting an upper endoscopy. The anesthesiologist said you're in such a trance, dreamlike state plus with the inability to form memories its like you're not your real "consciousness" but something different. Sort of like your brain is in "limp mode" and its not really _you._ This was both comforting and slightly terrifying in a different way.

Obviously it would be worse if you remembered it, but the trauma is still there even if you don't. Ask Bill Cosby's victims.

Oh apparently from downvotes, some people here would prefer to remember being raped by Bill Cosby. Well I hope I get what you wish for, lol.

People will downvote anything, SMH.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#176

Post by Balgair »

aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

To add to the discussion in the comments:

There is also the practice of not using anesthesia on infants when undergoing medical surgery.

Anesthesia is hard to do even on adults, harder on children, and very difficult on infants. Not accidentally killing one is quite hard.

So, for a long time we just didn't. I think some countries still don't, but can't remember.

The idea really gets back all the way to philosophy. If you can't remember if you were in pain, did you get hurt? And then you add in the medical problem itself, the duty to do no harm, the difficulties, etc. The conclusion was to just not use pain meds.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#177

Post by Gooblebrai »

acheron wrote: post #5

“We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?” Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 Ac…

Source: Bioenhancement Center (SMAC), Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#178

Post by rickydroll »

dhosek wrote: post #60
aetherspawn wrote: post #6

Live dissection and experimentation on “alive but drugged” human brains is mental. How do you ensure that you aren’t torturing a brain that can’t see, hear or scream? How are you held accountable?

When I had my ear surgery about 20 years ago, the doctor explained to me that I would be awake for part of the procedure, but the anesthesia meant that I would have no memory of it.¹ It’s a weird thing to think about whether that lack of memory would obviate the pain or discomfort of the moment. ⸻ 1. As it turned out, I was so frightened in the lead-up to the surgery that they had to do general anesthesia on me becau…

Oh yeah, I've had two cath lab visits. In both of them, I woke up in the middle of the process, conscious enough to recognize that the black-and-white image on the screen was me with a wire in my heart and little puffs of dye.

The first time it happened, I was fascinated watching the process. I thought I asked them a question about what I was seeing. I probably was just mumbling. The second time, I had a bright white ball of nuclear fire in my chest, and in my mind's eye, my ribs were slumping under the heat. I tried to tell them about the burning sensation, and I apologized for complaining (one should always be polite to the doctor running a wire through one's arteries and into one's heart).

In both cases, after I tried to speak, the room went black again.

As I relate the story, I can see how, for some people, it would be nightmare fuel. But for me it was this abstract "hey, that's cool."

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#180

Post by [deleted] »

tyre wrote: post #93
smeggysmeg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until we find out otherwise. There have been multiple organ harvesting scandals lately. Informed consent has become a marketing concept, no longer a reality.

Citation required. Specifically for a western country happening at any notable scale via organ donors.

[deleted]
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