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An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

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Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have had LLMs for much longer than 3 years.

No, we haven't, for any reasonable definition of L.

Sure we do, since Fei-Fei Li and team created that annotated dataset, which allowed to train first LLMs. So LLMs are here for more than a decade already.

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#402
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think of it as: Imagine every bit of human knowledge as a discrete point within some large high dimensional space of knowledge. You can draw a big convex hull around every single point of human knowledge in a space. A LLM, being trained within this convex hull, can interpolate between any set of existing discrete points in this hull to arrive at a point which is new, but still inside of the hull. Then there…

A lot of the space outside of the convex hull is just untried things. You can brute-force trying random things and checking the result and eventually learn something new. With a better heuristic, you can make better guesses and learn new things much more efficiently. There’s no reason to believe that kind of guess-and-check is outside of the reach of LLMs, or that most of our new discoveries are not found the same wa…

I come back to something like this idea when I consider the distinction being made that LLMs can only combine and interpolate between points in their training material. I could write a brute-force program that just used an English dictionary to produce every possible one-billion-gazillion word permutation of the words within, with no respect for rules of language, and chances are there would be some provable, testable, novel insight somewhere in the results if you had the time to sift through and validate all of it. LLMs seem like a tool that can search that space more effectively than any we've had before.

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the difference between what LLM's do and "true" understanding? The thing where you can understand the meaning of this sentence without first compiling a statistical representation of a 10 trillion line corpus of training data. Unless you're an NPC of course.

I mean brains get a lot of training data too in order to understand language. I don't think you provided a relevant difference. Or rather, maybe I don't understand what you mean :)

When you think about the word apple and what it signifies, what do you experience? Is there a feeling of "appleness"? Do you think that sense of meaning is equivalent to the numerical weights of an LLM?

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The map is not the territory.

I don't know what you're even trying to argue here. We're not comparing math to reality (though there's a strong argument to be made that reality has a structure that is mathematical in nature - structural realism didn't die a scientific philosophy just because someone came up with a pithy saying), we're talking about if math is discovered or invented. Most mathematicians would argue both - math is a language, we hav…

> we have created operations

It seems that addition (for instance) was "created" long before us.

On the other hand, it seems highly unlikely that a civilization similar to ours could "invent" an essentially different kind of mathematics (or physics, etc.)

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#405
I actually tried using GPT-5.5 Pro on this problem recently. It thought it was making progress on one path, but it made so many mistakes that it didn't feel worth it pushing further. It'll be interesting to check whether it's the same route. I got partial results (proved in Lean) that improve on the best-known results for four Erdős problems with GPT-5.5 Pro

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#406

For anyone using LLMs heavily for coding, this shouldn't be too surprising. It was just a matter of time. Mathematicians make new discoveries by building and applying mathematical tools in new ways. It is tons of iterative work, following hunches and exploring connections. While true that LLMs can't truly "make discoveries" since they have no sense of what that would mean, they can Monte Carlo every mathematical tool…

> the result has no meaning without the human intent behind the objective, human understanding to value the new pathway the AI used (more valuable than the result itself, by far) and the mathematical language (built by humans) to explore the concept. Isn't this just anthropocentrism? Why is understanding only valid if a human does it? Why is knowledge only for humans? If another species resolved the contradictions be…

The knowledge isn't of any use to us unless it is understandable to us. Many species understand things about the world around us that we are unable to explain or understand, even if it's just pure instinct on their part. These things are very useful to them, but have no value to us until we can understand and explain it, which then allows us to make use of it.

People saw birds fly for all of human history, but it was only recently that humans were able to make something fly and understand why. Once we understood, we were able to do amazing things, but before that, the millions of birds able to fly were of no help beyond inspiration for the dream.

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#407
post #224

The proof brings unexpected, sophisticated ideas from algebraic number theory to bear on an elementary geometric question. The more I read about these achievements the more I get a feeling that a lot of the power of these models comes from having prior knowledge on every possible field and having zero problems transferring to new domains. To me the potential beauty of this is that these tools might help us break thro…

I think you're on point, and you've explained it very well.

As we're becoming hyper specialised, they become an invaluable tool to merge the horizon in, so to speak.

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#408
post #133

Timothy Gowers' tweet about this: "If you are a mathematician, then you may want to make sure you are sitting down before reading futher.". woah.

Unfortunately Gowers has taken Tao's lead on this one. Gowers has one of my favourite video series about how he approaches a problem he is unfamiliar with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byjhpzEoXFs It is disheartening to see him jump into this GenAI puffery. I hope these GenAI labs are paying Tao handsomely for legitimizing their slop, but more likely he's feeling pressure from his University to promote and work wi…

Are you saying this result is uninteresting and therefore AI slop or puffery? Obviously OpenAI has a motivation to "market" the accomplishment as much as possible, but surely you agree it IS a remarkable achievement?

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#409
I think it's worth being skeptical of this.. there's a way too common pattern of "AI Lab Shows AI Doing Something Only Humans Can Do" only for a bunch of important caveats and limitations to be discovered after the initial hype. And of course, the correction never seems to be as viral as the hype. I'll believe it when a mathematician actually reads the 100+ pages of reasoning.

Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening is the verbal/linguistic equivalent of the invention of calculus. No intellectual field will ever be the same again. Who wouldn't find that exciting, and want to experience it?

People who enjoy thinking. Ya know, the "intellectual" part.

This is the beginning of thinking, not the end...
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