can the AI please tell us what to do now that all knowledge work will become unemployment?
Physical labour?
An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
241–250 of 1001 posts
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> what basis do you have for assuming an LLM is fundamentally incapable of doing this? because I have no basis for assuming an LLM is fundamentally capable of doing this.
Good on you for spelling out this reasoning, but it is manifestly unsound. For a wide variety of values of X, people a few years ago had no reason to expect that LLMs would be capable of X. Yet here we are.
This is something that could be demonstrated rather than just argued.
Train an LLM only on texts dated prior to Newton and see if it can create calculus, derrive the equations of motion, etc.
If you ask it about the nature of light and it directs you to do experiments with a prism I'd say we're really getting somewhere.
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A difficult part was constructing a chess board on which to play math (Lean). Now it's just pattern recognition and computation. However, this was not verified in Lean. This was purely plain language in and out. I think, in many ways, this is a quite exciting demonstration of exactly the opposite of the point you're making. Verification comes in when you want to offload checking proofs to computers as well. As it s…
Yeah, but I wouldn't be surprised if they train the model on verification assisted by Lean.
Arguing similarly to how stockfish, the chess engine, trains I would not be surprised if this is more common in the future. I don't know if they use any proof verification tools during their reinforcement learning procedure right now, as far as I know they've been focusing more on COT based strategies (w/o Lean). But I'm hardly an LLM expert, I don't know.
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#244This is impressive, no question.
Without knowing all this model has been trained on though, it is pretty hard to ascertain the extent to which it arrived to this "on its own". The entire AI industry has been (not so secretly) paying a lot of experts in many fields to generate large amounts of novel training data. Novel training data that isn't found anywhere else--they hoard it--and which could actually contain original ideas.
It isn't likely that someone solved this and then just put it in the training data, although I honestly wouldn't put that past OpenAI. More interesting though is the extent to which they've generated training data that may have touched on most or all of the "original" tenets found in this proof.
We can't know, of course. But until these things are built in a non-clandestine manner, this question will always remain.
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#245[deleted]
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#246To the “LLMs just interpolate their training data” crowd: Ayer, and in a different way early Wittgenstein, held that mathematical truths don’t report new facts about the world. Proofs unfold what is already implicit in axioms, definitions, symbols, and rules. I think that idea is deeply fascinating, AND have no problem that we still credit mathematicians with discoveries. So either “recombining existing material” isn…
I'd hope most functional adults understand that the Fields Medal and basically every other annual "prize" out there is awarded to both "recombinant" innovations and "new-dimensional thinking" innovations. Humans aren't going to come up with "new-dimensional" innovations in every field, every single year. I'd say yes, LLMs "just" recombine things. I still don't think if you trained an LLM with every pre-Newton/Liebniz…
To keep my usual rant short: I think you’re assuming a categorical distinction between those two types of innovations that just doesn’t exist. Calculus certainly required some fundamental paradigm shifts, but there’s a reason that they didn’t have to make up many words wholesale to explain it!
Also we shouldn’t be thinking about what LLMs are good at, but rather what any computer ever might be good at. LLMs are already only one (essential!) part of the system that produced this result, and we’ve only had them for 3 years.
Also also this is a tiny nitpick but: the fields medal is every 4 years, AFAIR. For that exact reason, probably!
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because by definition LLMs are permutation machines, not creativity machines. (My premise, which you may disagree with, is that creativity/imagination/artistry is not merely permutation.)
What is creativity if not permutation? A brain has some model of the world and recombines concepts to create new concepts.
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Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#248To the “LLMs just interpolate their training data” crowd: Ayer, and in a different way early Wittgenstein, held that mathematical truths don’t report new facts about the world. Proofs unfold what is already implicit in axioms, definitions, symbols, and rules. I think that idea is deeply fascinating, AND have no problem that we still credit mathematicians with discoveries. So either “recombining existing material” isn…
If anything, this is more illustration of how llms are not useful to us...
They will do their own thing, don't need us. In fact, we will be in the way...
We can choose to study them and their output, but they don't make us better mathematicians...
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
Math is an abstraction of reality, it had to be invented, so more inventions or discoveries could be made within it.
What is an abstraction? It is something that arises from human thought and human thought arises from the activity of neurons which are a part of reality. You can't escape reality unless you invoke some form of dualism.
abstractions are objects that come into existence via design and iteration to refine its form. This right here is invention not discovery.
Re: An OpenAI model has disproved a central conjecture in discrete geometry
#250To the “LLMs just interpolate their training data” crowd: Ayer, and in a different way early Wittgenstein, held that mathematical truths don’t report new facts about the world. Proofs unfold what is already implicit in axioms, definitions, symbols, and rules. I think that idea is deeply fascinating, AND have no problem that we still credit mathematicians with discoveries. So either “recombining existing material” isn…
> I think that idea is deeply fascinating, AND have no problem that we still credit mathematicians with discoveries. Most discoveries are indeed implied from axioms, but every now and then, new mathematics is (for lack of a better word) "created"—and you have people like Descartes, Newton, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Ramanujan, Galois, etc. that treat math more like an art than a science. For example, many belive that to…
math more like an art than a science.
we likely need some new kind of math. Imo, it's unlikely that an LLM will somehow invent it.
In concrete terms: could a thousand LLMs-driven agents running on supercomputers—500 of which are dedicated to building software for the other 500-come up with new math?