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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

lesnumeriques.com

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#541

Post by snovv_crash »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #498
somewhatgoated wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others said that choice is not really given in this case. Also with the government option it wouldn’t mean that you can’t still use other methods - for example in brasil credit card or cash work just fine, PIX is just one (very convenient) option.

Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only. Also: What is PIX uptake/penetration like in the countryside? China is shocking how fast that countryside wet/farmer's markets started accepting AliPay. Literally, you can buy a kilo of pumpkin (namguo) using nothing but your mobile phone with AliPay, and the old lady running the stand (in a wet market) pro…

In Africa they've had this since ~2005 with the Mpesa system. It basically transfers cellphone credits as payment. In certain regions everyone with a dumb phone was hooked up and you could do anything from buy a coconut from a guy on the side of the road to pay your taxi driver to pay at the supermarket.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#542

Post by lnxg33k1 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #99
sschueller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.

Wero is run by the banks themselves, which are in turn controlled/restricted by the central bank. I don't think there's a meaningful difference on that front. The European ECB isn't really in a position to directly offer services to people, and relying on every country's central banks to cooperate will take decades.

Wait until you see that ECB is shared between European states central banks that themselves shared between each country commercial banks

The ECB is directly governed by European Union law. Its capital stock, worth €11 billion, is owned by all 27 central banks of the EU member states as shareholders.[6] The initial capital allocation key was determined in 1998 on the basis of the states' population and GDP, but the capital key has been readjusted since.[6] Shares in the ECB are not transferable and cannot be used as collateral.

-- Italian Central bank As of early 2024, the 15 largest shareholders represented slightly over half of the bank's equity, namely UniCredit (5.0 percent), Cassa nazionale di previdenza ed assistenza per gli ingegneri ed architetti liberi professionisti [it] (4.9 percent), Fondazione ENPAM [it] (4.9 percent), Cassa nazionale di previdenza e assistenza forense [it] (4.9 percent), Intesa Sanpaolo (4.9 percent), Cassa nazionale di previdenza e assistenza dei dottori commercialisti [it] (3.7 percent), BPER Banca (3.3 percent), ICCREA Banca (3.1 percent), Generali Italia (3.0 percent), the National Institute for Social Security (3.0 percent), Istituto nazionale per l'assicurazione contro gli infortuni sul lavoro (3.0 percent), Cassa di Sovvenzioni e Risparmio fra il Personale della Banca d'Italia [it] (3.0 percent), Cassa di Risparmio di Asti (3.0 percent), Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (2.8 percent), and Crédit Agricole Italia (2.8 percent). The remaining 49 percent were dispersed among 157 shareholders, mainly banks and banking foundations.[49]

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#543

Post by switchbak »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #393
rozap wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Dang has stated these sorts of comments do not belong on HN news. Discussion of specifics are fine, but nationalist slurs are not. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48100358 Edit: wow, my bad. HN really loves low effort nationalistic slurs as entire comments now.

[flagged]

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#544

Post by csomar »

CodesInChaos wrote: post #184
mcv wrote: post #43

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. I've always been annoyed by the need to type in sensitive card in…

> iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work Is it? I see it more as an underwhelming fix for SEPA Direct Debit's inability to verify payment data synchronously. * iDeal doesn't support basic features like pre-authorization. I'm not even sure if it supports setting up a payment agreement without triggering an immediate payment at all (pretty sure it didn't, when we inte…

I was under the impression that direct debit requires an initial authorization from the account owner? Otherwise anyone with your bank account number can pull your account funds and bank account numbers are hardly a private information (unlike a cc where you need the card number/expiry/cvv code and generally a correct address)

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#545

Post by tremon »

SomeUserName432 wrote: post #219
cfontes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and while iDEAL is pretty good, PIX is easier to understand, explain, and deal with. PIX has more variants, you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays. I would say Tikkie is almost as good an…

> PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. You lack the inherent fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor protection that Visa/Mastercard provides. Bought something online and didn't receive your product? With PIX you're SOL, with Visa/Mastercard you get a chargeback.

Visa/Mastercard provides that because the US is a very untrustworthy country. I don't know the situation in Brazil, but here in Europe small claims court just works fine. I think it's pretty dysfunctional to have to rely on private companies for adequate legal protection.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#546

Post by tekne »

lxgr wrote: post #323
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks and Visa/Mastercard probably love that you fill out your CC details on an online store, and next time you can just 1-click pay. Probably causes a big jump in revenue/profit. That's why they never innovated much. Of course, it is incorrect, and digital payments everywhere (on a kiosk or online) should be intentional pushes, not pulls.

I want many payments to be pull-based (at least I'd go crazy having to positively sign off every utility bill and subscription), but the ideal user interface for pull payments shows who exactly is pulling what, with a few days notice, and a one-click way to cancel any standing authorization.

Something something capability-based finance something something

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#547

Post by lentil_soup »

jorisw wrote: post #539
fooyc wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online and in-store payments will follow in 2027, as per the article

Understood. But even then it couldn't be easier than the contactless direct debit we already have.

will depend on how it's implemented, you could end up paying via a QR code, contact less NFC, a phone number, the web. I think it could open up a lot of innovation

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#548

Post by tialaramex »

rescbr wrote: post #444
testing22321 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zero fees involved Won’t someone think of the profits!

Zero fees for an individual, by regulation. Companies pay for PIX usage. Some banks waive these fees, and it is comparable to debit card transaction fees.

And magically things are much cheaper when you do this, both because they're actually cheaper without individual billing and associated overhead, and because the few larger payers have a powerful incentive to ensure they pay as little as possible.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#549

Post by tremon »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #182
cfontes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and while iDEAL is pretty good, PIX is easier to understand, explain, and deal with. PIX has more variants, you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays. I would say Tikkie is almost as good an…

Nah, BLIK from Poland was there earlier and is in many ways better, Wero was unfairly lobbied for by the old European guard, so most of Eastern Europe walked away. They are now hesitantly joining Wero, supporting it only to downplay and to lobby ECB for an API platform and not for a product.

> BLIK from Poland was there earlier

BLIK was launched in 2015 according to Wikipedia; iDeal is from 2005.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#550

Post by leereeves »

spamizbad wrote: post #418
chneu wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I'm so glad America is finally crumbling from its position of power. Americans need a wake up call because our insane hubris and stubbornness is responsible for so much of the bad stuff in the world.

I got some (bad?) news for you: Most Americans are either in complete denial over this or genuinely don't care. They don't think the wealth and lifestyles they enjoy have anything to do with the US' status as a global hegemon. Some even think the relationship is inverted, believing that as the world de-Americanizes, Americans will somehow benefit from this.

> Some even think the relationship is inverted, believing that as the world de-Americanizes, Americans will somehow benefit from this.

That may well be true of the working class, who receive nothing from the foreign income multinational corporations earn but face more competition to buy housing from the people who do receive a share, and more competition for jobs from foreigners (both immigration and globalization).

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