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Leaving Microsoft

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Re: Leaving Microsoft

#71

Post by rodgerd »

brcrth wrote: post #31
elemeno wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And F# in the financial world, along with Scala. Other Functional languages are being used more as well, but since a huge amount of financial software sits on either a .Net or a Java stack, using FP languages which can easily interop with the rest of your libraries makes life a lot easier.

Very enlightening. I always thought that the "financial world" were locked into Fortran/COBOL.

The core financials may be in COBOL and assembler, but these days most things talking to them will be Java or C#; the middleware will most likely be Java as will many of the front-end apps.

And plenty of banks are migrating away from COBOL on the core systems (slowly), and for them Java is usually the new COBOL, and the JVM is the new s390 microcode.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#72

Post by tinco »

Someone wrote: post #46
mtrimpe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because many university students are taught Clean (the 'other' purely functional lazy programming language) [1] which is developed in the Netherlands. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_(programming_language)

I would not bet on that. Utrecht ( http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/UHC ) is in the Netherlands, too. I also expect/guess that it has more CS students than Nijmegen

So every dutch university teaches a language they themselves wrote the compiler for. The university of twente used to teach FP in a miranda dialect called amanda, which ofcourse was developed at utwente :p

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#73

Post by jedws »

eta_carinae wrote: post #44
smenyp wrote: post #4

FYI, Simon Marlow is incredibly big in the Haskell community and is the leading expert in Multi core parallelism via STMs in Haskell. Some of the work he has done for the GHC compiler is frankly fantastic. This is incredibly big news in the Haskell world. The FP community is starting to break boundaries with the industry in the last 5 years with Clojure (and Scala's functional support). Currently, FB seems to use has…

> The FP community is starting to break boundaries with the industry in the last 5 years with Clojure (and Scala's functional support). There is very little evidence of that. Do a search for Scala, Clojure or Haskell on the main indicator web sites (job boards, StackOverflow, TIOBE, indeed.com, etc...) and you'll find they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago compared to the mainstream languages.

The datas do not match your assertions: http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=scala&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=clojure&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=haskell&l=

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#74

Post by eta_carinae »

jedws wrote: post #73
eta_carinae wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FP community is starting to break boundaries with the industry in the last 5 years with Clojure (and Scala's functional support). There is very little evidence of that. Do a search for Scala, Clojure or Haskell on the main indicator web sites (job boards, StackOverflow, TIOBE, indeed.com, etc...) and you'll find they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago compared to the mainstream languages.

The datas do not match your assertions: http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=scala&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=clojure&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=haskell&l=

Yes, it does.

Your data is showing that Scala grew from 0.01% to 0.03% over the past two years. Sounds impressive, right?

It's a relative number. Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something.

Let's take a look at the absolute numbers:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=scala%2C+java&l=

As you can see, Scala's line is a flatline around 0 compared to Java.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#75

Post by jedws »

eta_carinae wrote: post #74
jedws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The datas do not match your assertions: http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=scala&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=clojure&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=haskell&l=

Yes, it does. Your data is showing that Scala grew from 0.01% to 0.03% over the past two years. Sounds impressive, right? It's a relative number. Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. Let's take a look at the absolute numbers: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=scala%2C+java&l= As you can see, Scala's line is a flatline around 0 compared to Java.

> Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something.

No, it is the data you asked us to look at and it refutes your claim that "they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago". They are _less_ insignificant. They may still be several orders of magnitude lower, but your claim is still incorrect.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#76

Post by dibblego »

eta_carinae wrote: post #44
smenyp wrote: post #4

FYI, Simon Marlow is incredibly big in the Haskell community and is the leading expert in Multi core parallelism via STMs in Haskell. Some of the work he has done for the GHC compiler is frankly fantastic. This is incredibly big news in the Haskell world. The FP community is starting to break boundaries with the industry in the last 5 years with Clojure (and Scala's functional support). Currently, FB seems to use has…

> The FP community is starting to break boundaries with the industry in the last 5 years with Clojure (and Scala's functional support). There is very little evidence of that. Do a search for Scala, Clojure or Haskell on the main indicator web sites (job boards, StackOverflow, TIOBE, indeed.com, etc...) and you'll find they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago compared to the mainstream languages.

Cedric, you are a fucking idiot and I expect this to never stop. Thanks for the endless giggles. Sincerely.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#77

Post by eta_carinae »

jedws wrote: post #75
eta_carinae wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Your data is showing that Scala grew from 0.01% to 0.03% over the past two years. Sounds impressive, right? It's a relative number. Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. Let's take a look at the absolute numbers: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=scala%2C+java&l= As you can see, Scala's line is a flatline around 0 compared to Java.

> Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. No, it is the data you asked us to look at and it refutes your claim that "they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago". They are _less_ insignificant. They may still be several orders of magnitude lower, but your claim is still incorrect.

If you are saying that 0.01% is insignificant but 0.03% is not, then you might have gone off a little bit too far on the fan boy scale.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#78

Post by pohl »

eta_carinae wrote: post #77
jedws wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. No, it is the data you asked us to look at and it refutes your claim that "they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago". They are _less_ insignificant. They may still be several orders of magnitude lower, but your claim is still incorrect.

If you are saying that 0.01% is insignificant but 0.03% is not, then you might have gone off a little bit too far on the fan boy scale.

A programmer who can't admit that his claim, expressed as an inequality, evaluates to false?

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#79

Post by modersky »

eta_carinae wrote: post #77
jedws wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. No, it is the data you asked us to look at and it refutes your claim that "they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago". They are _less_ insignificant. They may still be several orders of magnitude lower, but your claim is still incorrect.

If you are saying that 0.01% is insignificant but 0.03% is not, then you might have gone off a little bit too far on the fan boy scale.

Just take absolute numbers: According to indeed, there are over 1000 open jobs mentioning Scala in the US, and over 750 in the UK. Taken together, the number of open Scala jobs in both countries exceeds the number of open Groovy jobs. It's still small compared to Java jobs (to be precise 1.5% in the US, close to 3% in the UK), but Java is by far the most demanded language, so this is not surprising. To say there is no pick-up in adoption of functional languages is disingenuous, IMO.

Re: Leaving Microsoft

#80

Post by modersky »

eta_carinae wrote: post #77
jedws wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever somebody quotes growth numbers instead of absolute numbers, they are trying to hide something. No, it is the data you asked us to look at and it refutes your claim that "they are as insignificant today as they were five years ago". They are _less_ insignificant. They may still be several orders of magnitude lower, but your claim is still incorrect.

If you are saying that 0.01% is insignificant but 0.03% is not, then you might have gone off a little bit too far on the fan boy scale.

And, I should add, given this level of demand it's a good thing we just finished the Scala massive open online class with more than 10'000 developers completing the course with success.
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