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Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

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Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#91

Post by something765478 »

> The permit, a Texas Pollutant Discharge Elimination System authorization known as TPDES, allowed up to 231,000 gallons of treated wastewater per day to be discharged into an unnamed ditch that flows into Petronila Creek and from there into Baffin Bay, a longtime South Texas saltwater fishing destination.

Ok, so sounds like Tesla got the necessary legal provisions.

> What it did not do, explicitly, was grant Tesla the right to use public or private property for wastewater conveyance.

I'm confused, does Tesla have the right to dump water or not? I would assume that this is exactly what a permit is for?

> The drainage district that manages the ditch the pipe was discharging into was never notified that the permit existed

This should be on the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality; they issued the permit, so it should be on them to notify the affected area.

> Tesla also argues that the Eurofins sampling methodology was inappropriate, because the lab placed its sampling equipment in the ditch downstream of the outfall pipe rather than at the outfall itself. The permit requires monitoring at the outfall point, and the company has pointed out that ditch samples can pick up contaminants from sources that have nothing to do with Tesla’s wastewater.

As the article itself says, that is a legitimate argument.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#92

Post by gdudeman »

xg15 wrote: post #45
dvt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, it's fine as long as it's legal, then? > Love that way of thinking. I mean.. yeah, kinda'? We live in a society made up of laws, that's kind of the premise. So if we don't think something is fine, we can make it illegal (and we often do). It's a pretty good way of thinking methinks, what's your alternative?

It's also a complete fiction in a world dominated by commercial interests, entrenched lobby groups, corrupt politicians and regulatory capture.

Is there an alternative?

We live in a much, much cleaner world than we did 50 years ago. Legislation and environmental rules have worked. There are some areas where it could obviously be better, but also some areas where regulation is too strict (blocking housing, renewables, transit) and the system is evolving to address those.

I think the loss of local media has made it harder for misdeeds to come to light, but I don't want to throw up my hands and cede everything to commercial interests et al.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#93

Post by malfist »

delichon wrote: post #65
malfist wrote: post #2

This is the report from testing the water: > Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. > Arsenic at 0.0025 mg/L. That is below the federal drinking water standard of 0.01 mg/L, but present. > Str…

> I hate elon as much as the next guy I honor your refusal to presume guilt and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

It's mostly just excessive amounts of snark, gets exhausting, wouldn't recommend.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#94

Post by whimsicalism »

I'm no lover of Elon Musk but this article reads like a hit piece and I literally laughed when I read the findings:

> Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. Arsenic at 0.0025 mg/L. That is below the federal drinking water standard of 0.01 mg/L, but present. Strontium at 1.17 mg/L. Mazloum’s technical report on the findings noted that long-term exposure can affect bone density and kidney function in humans and wildlife. Lithium and vanadium at concentrations Lazarte’s letter described as abnormally high relative to rainwater or normal groundwater. Elevated levels of manganese, iron, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium and potassium consistent with industrial discharge. Manganese, a battery process tracer, can have neurological effects at chronic doses. Excess phosphorus can cause algae blooms that strip oxygen from waterways. Ammonia in the form of nitrogen at 1.68 mg/L, amplifying the algae bloom risk.

None of these are violating the permit.

Ultimately, I view this as a values question: Is it permissible to manufacture in the US or not?

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#95

Post by gdudeman »

SilverElfin wrote: post #17
porphyra wrote: post #4

Obviously, discharging "dark and murky" polluted water is bad. But some of the figures from the lab report don't seem that terrible: * Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. * Arsenic at 0.002…

But does the amount per liter matter? The quantity matters too right? How much of these substances are being released in total? And since it’s into a drainage ditch that goes past what looks like farmland, does the higher local concentration cause more problems for the population in the area?

I think it does. Crops pull up a set amount of water. If it's concentrated, then they'll pull up a lot of heavy metals. If it's at very low levels, then they won't.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#96

Post by landl0rd »

SoftTalker wrote: post #73
porphyra wrote: post #4

Obviously, discharging "dark and murky" polluted water is bad. But some of the figures from the lab report don't seem that terrible: * Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. * Arsenic at 0.002…

What about: Strontium at 1.17 mg/L That seems like a misprint? Strontium is a fission byproduct. And that seems like a high amount if that's milligrams per liter.

Not really; strontium is quite common in the crust. In the oceans it occurs in the single-digit mg/L. This isn't a meaningful datapoint.

The entire article doesn't show particularly concerning findings and the protests read more like nimbyism than environmental concern. Industrial processes have some non-zero level of impact and complaining when someone runs one that's not very polluting at all is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Or it's just an attempt to outsource all the pollution to china, which is fine for many things (I'd rather they were polluted than us) but not critical minerals.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#97

Post by gyanchawdhary »

perrohunter wrote: post #46

what a coincidence, all they want to do is report negatively on anything that Tesla touches, I've grown skeptical on all these sort of reports, most likely other refineries have similar or worse track records, but that doesn't fit the narrative right?

[flagged]

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#98

Post by krsw »

dvt wrote: post #22
bayindirh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it's fine as long as it's legal, then? How about when it enters the food chain and starts to accumulate? Will the elements say that "we're under legal limits, and accumulate slowly, so we will act nice and don't poison the organism we're in?" Love that way of thinking.

> So, it's fine as long as it's legal, then? > Love that way of thinking. I mean.. yeah, kinda'? We live in a society made up of laws, that's kind of the premise. So if we don't think something is fine, we can make it illegal (and we often do). It's a pretty good way of thinking methinks, what's your alternative?

It kind of falls apart when large companies can lobby and bribe the people in charge of writing and enacting laws to make exception and write around their problem areas. Or can just make strategic donations to ease any risks of enforcement. Or collude to make sure the fine for whatever infraction is well below the profit margin of doing said infraction.

I don't care to argue semantics, just pointing out your reply was as hollow as your criticism to the person saying legal doesn't mean safe. It's a pretty reasonable thing to draw attention to methinks...

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#99

Post by throwaway87410 »

tredre3 wrote: post #41
ex1fm3ta wrote: post #25

[flagged]

Isn't China great? First we make them produce all our stuff, then we bash them for polluting slightly more than us westerners, who produces nothing. We win political points for globalism, we win political points for lower cost goods, then we win political points by virtue signaling about the environment! So convenient.

Obviously China should reap all the advantages of producing everything while bearing none of the responsibility, how could poor China be ever accountable for anything. Clearly the United States government should get involved to take care of the pollution caused by the Chinese industry, all out American taxpayer's pockets preferably.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#100

Post by otherme123 »

tredre3 wrote: post #41
ex1fm3ta wrote: post #25

[flagged]

Isn't China great? First we make them produce all our stuff, then we bash them for polluting slightly more than us westerners, who produces nothing. We win political points for globalism, we win political points for lower cost goods, then we win political points by virtue signaling about the environment! So convenient.

It is even better: we grew cheaply by polluting freely, even doing absurd things like adding lead to gasoline knowing that lead is toxic. When we got rich, we leveraged that wealth to reduce some pollution, sending the worse industries to the developing countries.

Not saying that it was intentional, but we should not point fingers.

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