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Greek Alphabet Cards

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Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#61

Post by ck45 »

wvbdmp wrote: post #24
nephihaha wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the ancient and modern Greek alphabets are slightly different. The ancient pronunciations map more easily on to our alphabet. I find the modern ones less intuitive e.g. beta being a V sound. There is an example below, where someone writes Bravo in modern Greek, and uses "mu beta" for the "b" sound and "beta" for the "v" sound.

B/V shifts or mergers are very common, notably in many Spanish variants they will, for example, write “vaca”, betraying the latin root “vacca”, but very clearly say “baca”. Coming from a language that clearly differentates between these sounds, it’s surprising how close they are.

For me the most clear example (in English and other languages that borrowed from Latin) is "to move" and "mobile".

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#62

Post by epestr »

gschizas wrote: post #58
epestr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern academic consensus is that "η" was likely pronounced like the "e" in "met" but longer. In IPA, it'd be /e:/. And thus "β" as /be:ta/. What you are saying is how it is done in modern Greek though.

Yes, that's what I said. Beta sounded more like the English pronunciation than what modern Greek pronunciation is.

Oops, I thought your claim was about the consonant sound /b/ vs /v/. I had the British /bi:tə/ in my mind, and forgot that Americans used /beɪtə/, which I agree is closer to the American pronunciation if your 'ay's are not diphthongised.

Funny enough, I went to double-check the IPA and realized the textbook classical Attic should be reconstructed as /ɛ/, so /bɛːta/ anyway. Which is still closer to the American version as both are open front vowels.

BUT, I just went down a rabbit hole and found this video on the history of the letter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS5POB2rLsw

It turns out that while /bɛːta/ is the old academic reconstruction, statistical analyses of spelling mistakes from then shows that Athenians had already closed that vowel to /e:/ or even all the way to the modern /i:/ sound as early as 500 BC. So the how they spoke daily was even messier.

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#63

Post by tsoukase »

Funny thing, as a Greek I preferred Latin letters for math symbols, which I knew fluently, as this helped me focus easier on them among the Greek text. I believe this is one of the reasons Greek letters are used in Latin languages.

All 24 Greek letters are used as math variables, depending on the field. Eg κ, λ, μ for arithmetic, χ, ψ for equations, graphs and differential, θ, ω for probability. Someone should definitely know to handle them easily.

These cards are designed for kids, though they seem effective for adults too, as their language knowledge is similar to a small kid's. Another simple way is to print and fill pre-school charts that show repetitive large letters. It's never too late to learn Greek!

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#64

Post by thaumasiotes »

gschizas wrote: post #60
thaumasiotes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, π is pronounced "πι", or probably close[?] to "pee" in modern and in ancient Greek. No. In ancient Greek, π contrasts with φ. Φ is the one that indicates the sound an English speaker would hear as "p"; it's the one you would pronounce "pee". You'd hear the name of π as "bee". > T (τ) was never pronounced as "ta-oo", either, not in ancient nor modern Greek. That's exactly how it was pronounced in ancien…

I'm talking about the vowel sound, not the consonant sound. Of course φ was more like an aspirated π, that's why the letter φ is transliterated as ph (p with an aspiration mark which is the h). χ was also originally transliterated as kh, as it sounded more than an aspirated "k". I'm not sure about the consonant sound of "ψ" though. Certainly not "s" of course (the "p" in "ps" is not silent in modern Greek, and it mos…

> Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess).

> EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pronunciation at that time.

Vox Graeca says the opposite in regard to upsilon:

>> In both αυ and ευ the υ preserved its original quality as a back [u], i.e. it was not fronted to [ü] as elsewhere

https://archive.org/details/allen-vox-graeca-the-pronunciati... [page 76]

(The reason this statement isn't also applied to ου is not that the upsilon is fronted - it's that in ου, the upsilon is lost.)

Upsilon by itself began as [u] and developed into [y], but diphthongs ending in it didn't follow that development. Tau starts with the pronunciation /tau/ and stays that way.

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#65

Post by gschizas »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #64
gschizas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about the vowel sound, not the consonant sound. Of course φ was more like an aspirated π, that's why the letter φ is transliterated as ph (p with an aspiration mark which is the h). χ was also originally transliterated as kh, as it sounded more than an aspirated "k". I'm not sure about the consonant sound of "ψ" though. Certainly not "s" of course (the "p" in "ps" is not silent in modern Greek, and it mos…

> Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess). > EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pron…

Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. The sound still exists in isolated dialects, e.g. Tsakonic dialect which is a descendant of Doric dialect.

Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE, in the branch that led to modern Greek. The branch that followed Latinization and Anglicization (much later) converted the unpronounceable waw sound to plain "oo"

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#66

Post by gschizas »

epestr wrote: post #62
gschizas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I said. Beta sounded more like the English pronunciation than what modern Greek pronunciation is.

Oops, I thought your claim was about the consonant sound /b/ vs /v/. I had the British /bi:tə/ in my mind, and forgot that Americans used /beɪtə/, which I agree is closer to the American pronunciation if your 'ay's are not diphthongised. Funny enough, I went to double-check the IPA and realized the textbook classical Attic should be reconstructed as /ɛ/, so /bɛːta/ anyway. Which is still closer to the American versio…

You're right, I guess American English is too common and I didn't consider that British English pronounce it differently (and one step closer to modern Greek)

Attic/Athenian Greek were considered a bit weird by other Greeks at the time, especially with replacing "ss" with "tt". But if there was nothing else to connect us modern Greeks to ancient Greeks, the constant infighting and bickering would be enough :)

Doric Greek had replaced η with α in the same time period (eg ή ταν ή επί τας which would be ή την ή επί της in other ancient Greek dialects of the time.

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#67

Post by nayuki »

jimkleiber wrote: post #51
nayuki wrote: post #32

While bored in high school math class around the year 2005, I forced myself to learn the Greek alphabet. That very much came in handy in university, as Greek letters are frequently used for variables in computer science, mathematics, and physics.

Also plastered on frat and sorority houses all over town :-) (at least at many universities in the US)

The full alphabet?

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#68

Post by nephihaha »

FarmerPotato wrote: post #46
ben_w wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything written in ancient Greek that is foundational to western literature, has already been translated, likely to a higher standard than most of the people trying to learn it. Unless you wish to be part of an effort to further improve the quality of these translations, including to adjust them for the fact modern languages themselves are a moving target, just read those translations. Modern Greek, on the other h…

Wow, what a way to write off something "foundational to western literature". I studied koine Greek with my dad. Today, I study Aristotle alongside half-a-dozen English translations (the latest, Adam Beresford's Ethics, is hilarious, "like Han Solo and Chewbacca, Achilles and Patrocles" in the notes; his Aristotle uses "Perhaps...but that's a bit off-topic"). None of the English translations is as convincing as knowin…

Greek is famously a lot more specific about what love is (especially in a New Testament context). English smooshes a lot of barely related concepts together to form its idea of "love" which encompasses care, lust, parental love, romance, charity and a number of other things.

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#69

Post by thaumasiotes »

gschizas wrote: post #65
thaumasiotes wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess). > EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pron…

Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. The sound still exists in isolated dialects, e.g. Tsakonic dialect which is a descendant of Doric dialect. Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE, in the branch that led to modern Greek. The branch that followed Latinization a…

> Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w.

What? There is no sound "between" /u/ and /w/; they are the same sound. We call that sound /u/ in the nucleus of a syllable and /w/ in the onset.

> Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE

Early?? You were talking about ancient Greek. Are you calling 500 AD "ancient Greek"? At that point the ancient, classical, Hellenistic, and Roman periods have all concluded. You can call it koine. It's the end of koine.

Re: Greek Alphabet Cards

#70

Post by moi2388 »

nayuki wrote: post #67
jimkleiber wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also plastered on frat and sorority houses all over town :-) (at least at many universities in the US)

The full alphabet?

You aren’t familiar with the α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π ρ σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω sorority?
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