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Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

kabir.au

111–120 of 502 posts

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#111
post #91
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo frontier is too niche and specific, if you know what a frontier model means then it's fine, but if you don't then it's negative/detrimental to the title. "new" does the same thing and is probably just a better descriptor then frontier

if you are on HN and have no idea what "frontier model" would mean maybe it's time you found out.

I also misread the updated title.

"Frontier models break the open CTF format" is good

"Frontier AI..." means wtf is Frontier AI.

Because of course it exists (just googled it): https://frontierai.company/

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#112
post #72

Is AI also superior to humans at black box challenges and attacking actual targets on the internet? That seems like a really important question.

No, the search space is much more vast and the feedback loop almost nonexistent.

The reason LLMs can do CTFs so well is partially because the challenges are usually designed to avoid wasting time and to introduce a single concept without noise.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonderful teachers that give unreliable information with total confidence?

To be fair, that was much of my actual experience with human professors in university.

Veritasium proved that in a difficult challenge.

A Physics Prof Bet Me $10,000 I'm Wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#115
post #27

Right, the same way that car racing has "broken" jogging. This is so dumb. /s The whole point of competitions is to provide a safe environment thanks to a set of rules all participants AGREE on in order to progress together. If new tools "break" the competition, we change the rules and that's A-OK. CTF isn't a natural phenomenon, if tools change, rules change, simple.

The only way this actually works is if you move CTF to in-person only. There's no other way to reasonably prevent the whole leaderboard being taken up by whoever spent the most on tokens.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#116
post #103
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll always remember my middle school science teaching telling us that nuclear fusion violates conservation of mass because the 2 protons in a pair of hydrogen nuclei combine to make helium with 4 nucleons. It's not true, but that's not the point. But he was a great teacher anyway. He was engaging and kept the kids in line and learning. I eventually learned the truth, and most of my classmates forgot about it. Teachi…

This one feels less sinister than some other things at least to me, personally. You can reasonably doubt that the conservation of mass is violated and find out the truth based on that. But understanding more complex biology or historical context for some things? Granted, many of these things seem to be low stakes, but I'm sure there are some there are not (sex ed comes to mind).

to be fair, fusion does violate conservation of mass, just not the way the teacher explained it. the loss of mass is where the energy comes from.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#117
post #57

I think soon there will be ways to trick this models and I think when it happens it will be yet another layer like aslr These models seems completely unbeatable only in the ads. There are 100+ times way someone puts Hindi Yoda talk In Morse Code and it goes nuts. The reason they are going to hard for PR Marketing on this is because they know it is a matter of time.

The more you obfuscate a topic against LLMs the lower the educational value of a challenge.

The only things that works is novelty and obscurity. LLMs still suck with things mentioned in the footnotes of datasheets and manuals, things that deviate in subtle ways, unique constructions that alter something very very common. It's hard for LLMs to avoid common pitfalls in terms of making assumptions, while staying on track.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#118
I helped arrange my country's longest living CTF this year. Our CTF is *made for amateurs*, but we always have challenges for intermediate to skilled players and the top of the scoreboard is usually topped by them. It is the compromise we have - amateurs get so many tasks they struggle to solve them all, and the pro's get to win. Our goal is to nerdsnipe people who are curious into trying our CTF by offering easy beginner tasks, and then get them hooked enough to stick around for the intermediate ones, even if it takes them a day to solve one.

This year, multiple groups on the top of the leaderboard were clearly abusing LLMs. You can tell because they know nothing of what a CTF is nor the terminology, nor really the fields the challenges were about when they were talked to. They were obviously amateurs.

It was pretty depressing to hear how unaware they were of how obviously they did not fit in to the type that usually is on the top of the leaderboard. It seems they seriously think they were under the radar. If it was one group it could be a freak incident - some times someone just shows up and curbstomps competition. But there were many groups like this this year. They also had a certain smugness to it - one staff reported that a group was hinting to other teams about their "super weapon". Another group credited their "secret third team member they didn't want to talk about".

I use LLM frequently and experiment with it a lot, both at work and on my free time. Nowadays they are good enough to have value and I am interested in learning more about that. They let me spend more time on hard problems and avoid spending the day on simple CRUD. I say this to say that LLM doesnt have to equal bad, it is a tool, that's all. However, I generally avoid LLM communities because many LLM fans are lazy and unskilled people who are just happy they can feel they are worth something even if they have no skill. They don't really have much to provide of conversation. If anything, from reading the CTF crowd this year, the rise of LLMs has just meant more of these people can stomp on and harvest the CTF scene for self validation.

This is not me trying to gatekeep who can play CTF. Anyone is welcome, but there is one condition: You are here to learn and have fun.

The conclusion many I talk to has come to is that nowadays, it is harder to learn to put in hard work and become good at something because there are just too many ways to cheat and take shortcuts. I suspect in the future there will be a shortage of useful people - the kind that have critical thought and know the value of doing something properly. This doesn't mean "Not using LLM", but as said by many on HN before you need a certain seniority before LLMs are useful augmentations to your skills and not just stopping you from learning yourself.

I agree with the article. Anything but physical competitions with strong security - think professional e-sports with organizer-provided PCs, is over. But I think one of the most interesting things to take away from my CTF experience is that the bottom of the leaderboard was still full of amateurs slowly working their way up - it is a few rotten apples that ruin the fun for most, and there are still plenty of people who want to learn and deep-dive.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#119
post #94

>If adaptation means accepting that the scoreboard is now an AI orchestration benchmark, then we should say that honestly instead of pretending the old competition still exists. This is like someone complaining that making machine parts has been ruined: Skillful craftsmen used to make them by hand using manual tools! Nowadays the CAD/CAM/CNC cheaters have almost completely automated the whole thing. How is the next g…

The way I read the post is that the author is disappointed that the community is gone. The CTF was just a reason for a number of like-minded people to organize around an activity.

Indeed, in the real world, plenty of people organize to do formerly-skillful tasks together. I have not personally crafted a gear by hand, but I have built a house in a long-abandoned style with a group of people only using hand tools.

There _is_ a danger that society forgets how to do these things. During that house-building exercise, there were many tricks of the trade that, while likely documented somewhere in a book, would have been difficult to reproduce without seeing a demonstration. From the standpoint of “does it matter?” it depends on what you care about. We absolutely do not need cruck-framed houses with scribed joints. Modern construction is faster and cheaper and lasts long enough. But it would sadden me greatly if practices like this faded from memory, because it’s one of those things that makes you gasp “wow!” when you see it. And your appreciation only deepens when you try it yourself.

Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format

#120
post #101

The first paragraph on anything with an acronym in it should explain the bloody acronym. I assumed CTF was an encryption standard, given the headline. It was only coming here and reading the comments that made me realise it's a game-format ("Capture The Flag").

Capture the flag the only expansion of CTF that i know but even if it is capture the flag this still doesnt make any sense. Like Quake CTF?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_the_flag_(cybersecurit...
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