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Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
41–50 of 502 posts
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#42I'm conflicted on the use of AI in CTFs. On the one hand, they are supposed to mirror real-life scenarios, so of course you should be able to use any tool that would be available to you in real life.
On the other hand, CTFs are fundamentally a game and a competition which are supposed to be fun and compare and improve ones skill. So when I let an LLM generate the entire solution for me, what's the point anymore? I did not learn anything. I did not work for that place on the leaderboard, I just copied the solution. And worst of all, I did not have any fun. It's boring.
So how does using AI as a solver not feel like cheating?
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#43[flagged]
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#44Replace ‘CTF’ with ‘high school’ or ‘university’ and you’ve described the total slow motion collapse of education; the only saving grace is that most of it requires in person presence.
We’ve figured out the human replacement pipeline it seems, but we haven’t figured out the eduction part. LLMs can be wonderful teachers, but the temptation to just tell it ‘do it for me’ is almost impossible to resist.
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#45Great article, well written, and good analogy to chess. I’ve been playing competitive chess most of my adult life and I think that the solution lies in how chess dealt with this problem:
Explicit ELO measurements with some cheating detection. AI assistance wholly banned. As you climb the ELO ladder, detection gets more onerous. At top level during online events, anti cheating teams require the use of both monitoring software and multiple cameras.
Idea is that you can cheat pretty easily at the lowest levels but it gets less easy the higher you go. This allows for better feeding into the truly elite competitions.
I think chess’s very firm stance that AI is never allowed in competition (neither online nor in person), rather than CTF’s acceptance, was the right call.
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#46The article is the thickest of AI slop. Don't believe anything.
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#47Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ctfs need preparation and unconstrained internet, even if you block domains it’s possible to tunnel out
Presumably if you block domains, you wouldn't be able to use AI to find a way around the block. So doing so demonstrates at least some human skill
Or forethought, I’m sure you could ask an AI how to circumvent any blocks.
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#49«That feedback loop is breaking. If the visible scoreboard is dominated by teams using AI, a beginner is pushed toward using AI before they have built the instincts the AI is replacing. That is an anti-pattern. It prevents active learning, and active struggle is the bit that actually teaches you. It is also completely demotivating to put in real effort and see no visible progress because the ladder above you has been automated.»
This stands out to me, and speaks perhaps broader than the article itself? I’m sure this has been in the spotlight before, but well put for many areas I think.
Re: Frontier AI has broken the open CTF format
#50Replace ‘CTF’ with ‘high school’ or ‘university’ and you’ve described the total slow motion collapse of education; the only saving grace is that most of it requires in person presence. We’ve figured out the human replacement pipeline it seems, but we haven’t figured out the eduction part. LLMs can be wonderful teachers, but the temptation to just tell it ‘do it for me’ is almost impossible to resist.
Wonderful teachers that give unreliable information with total confidence?