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The sigmoids won't save you

astralcodexten.com

171–180 of 297 posts

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coding is anything but “easily” verifiable.

It's extremely verifiable. The reinforcement finetuning strategy I'm referring to involves LLM creating coding tasks with an expected output, implementing the code, and then having a compiler (or interpreter in the case of languages like python) succeed or fail to run the code. Then compare the output to expected output. The verification process (run interpreter + run test) can be done in seconds. One can generate mi…

> It's extremely verifiable.

Only if you fully detail the behavior of the system.... at that point why use a chatbot? You've coded the entire thing.

> first as good as human

We'll see. Chatbots are only as capable as you detail them to be

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#172

This article answers the question in the second paragraph then completely ignores the answer for the rest of it. >My understanding is that this represents 3-4 “generations” of different technology (propellers, turbojets, etc). Each technology went through normal iterative improvement, then, when it reached its fundamental limits, got replaced by a better technology. The last technology, ramjets, reached its limit at…

> If you used the same architecture as GPT2 today you're in for a bad time training a new frontier model. It's only because we have dozens of breakthroughs

What exactly are these dozens of breakthroughs? Most frontier models architectures today still look very much like GPT2 at their core. There were various of improvements like instructgpt, finetuning techniques, efficiency improvements with kv caches, faster attention, lora, better tokenizers, etc. Most of these are for making things run faster. The biggest differentiator has probably been data curation and post-training data and the ability to fit more into the model. But I think we had few breakthroughs that would fall into the category of different technologies.

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#174

First sigmoid was transformers allow us to rapidly scale to our already abundant data until we tapped it out, the second is/was reasoning, allowing us to scale to our available compute (and compute manufacturing capacity). Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't have candidate for the third sigmoid, and scaling inference is hitting real-world supply chain constraints - electricity and chips. Short of a third sigmoid app…

We are multiple orders of magnitude away from Landauer limits - so next big thing in matmul could be photonic multipliers - there’s a bunch of them coming up in the next 3? years. So that’s a 2-4 order of magnitude improvement. Sigmoid?

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#175
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analysis in the article explains why it applies to any phenomena that we might be able to notice. The argument given is the same as the one that I first ran across, not by that name, in https://www.nature.com/articles/363315a0 . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument claims that it was a rediscovery of something that was hypothesized a decade article. I hadn't tried to give it a name, or thought to apply…

The argument sounds nice, but it's just wrong. It only works if most processes you're going to encounter that you know nothing about happen to be Lindy processes. If most processes happening around you that you know nothing about are not of that type, then the argument fails.

I understood it as if you know absolutely nothing about a process, your best guess is that it's half done.

I don't even think there are any "genuine" Lindy processes. What would those look like? Are they always half done?

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#176

FYI: The author has predicted that "AGI" will be here in 1-2 years and has staked his public reputation on it. He is personally invested in trendlines being lindy rather than sigmoid. I don't think you can use lindy on trends as if trends are static objects, but that's another conversation.

So, this is not quite right: Alexander contributed to the report, but his personal opinion is more like the mid-2030s[1]. Freddie feels like this is him backing down from the original statement, but in fact he said this at the time the report was published, and in fact pointed out a graf below the quote that Freddie claims does tie him to 2027:

> Do we really think things will move this fast? Sort of no - between the beginning of the project last summer and the present, Daniel’s median for the intelligence explosion shifted from 2027 to 2028. We keep the scenario centered around 2027 because it’s still his modal prediction (and because it would be annoying to change). Other members of the team (including me) have medians later in the 2020s or early 2030s, and also think automation will progress more slowly. So maybe think of this as a vision of what an 80th percentile fast scenario looks like - not our precise median, but also not something we feel safe ruling out. [2]

I don't think this changes your observation that he is "personally invested" (i.e. believes this trendline will continue), but I'm pretty sure when AGI doesn't appear in 2027, many people will believe that this invalidates the arguments being made here (or in the report). The actual report was intended to give a feel for what a near-future "disaster" AGI scenario, and settled on a date to give that some concrete immediacy. The collective review that gave that as a possible, but not inevitable date is still ongoing (they originally pushed their best estimate out a bit further, but now they think, judging by the goals that are being hit, their scenario was a little too conservative). [3]

[1] https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/im-offering-scott-alexa... [2] https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/introducing-ai-2027 [3] https://blog.aifutures.org/p/grading-ai-2027s-2025-predictio...

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#177

This article answers the question in the second paragraph then completely ignores the answer for the rest of it. >My understanding is that this represents 3-4 “generations” of different technology (propellers, turbojets, etc). Each technology went through normal iterative improvement, then, when it reached its fundamental limits, got replaced by a better technology. The last technology, ramjets, reached its limit at…

Something that deeply frustrates me, as someone who did R&D on model architectures, is how similar the modern LLM model architectures are to GPT2. (This is a bit disingenuous, as lots/most of work is spent on the scaling and training side of things.)

[flagged]

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#178

First sigmoid was transformers allow us to rapidly scale to our already abundant data until we tapped it out, the second is/was reasoning, allowing us to scale to our available compute (and compute manufacturing capacity). Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't have candidate for the third sigmoid, and scaling inference is hitting real-world supply chain constraints - electricity and chips. Short of a third sigmoid app…

Reinforcement learning has become a huge portion of compute used during training runs [1] and synthetic data is letting us get lots more mileage out of the existing data. Additionally, there is lots of new, high quality data being created and collected each day. I think the "running out of data" thing was pretty poorly reported by mainstream media.

[1]. https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/dario-amodei-2

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was surprised he never discussed the idea that such exponentials are typically made of stacked sigmoids. That said... if the exponential is made of stacked sigmoids, it's still an exponential on the whole! The fact that it's made of stacked sigmoids is relevant to the engineers making it, but not so relevant to the users or those otherwise affected by it.

Only so long as you can keep inventing the next sigmoid in the stack.

Right, and thence back to the point of TFA.

Either you black-box the curve and assume that you will keep stacking sigmoids for about as long as you already have already seen.

Or you white box it and make some actual technical argument about why the curves can’t keep stacking.

There are plenty of plausible arguments here. Scott is not arguing that the exponential must go on forever.

He’s making a meta-level point about the debate; you have to pick one of the above, and you can’t just argue that “now is the time the s-curves will stop stacking” without providing some justification.

Re: The sigmoids won't save you

#180
This feels like a really verbose way of saying "things have been growing fast for a while so they should continue to grow as fast for just as long", and then he places the burden on people to prove him wrong. Um, no, the burden of proof is shared, "this will just keep going" requires just as much proof as "this is going to level off" if you're just looking at trend lines.

It's better to look at the underlying factors. Money sources are drying up, nobody is making a profit outside of nVidia, most blackwell GPU's are likely not even installed yet and will probably be 2 generations behind when they finally are being used, data centers are hitting all sorts of obstacles getting built and powered and they're getting built slowly, most AI researchers seem to think that LLMs are a dead end, the newer models seem to be getting more expensive and sometimes worse, or even potentially are showing signs of model collapse (goblins..), the supposed productivity gains are not materializing.. AI has worse public sentiment than congress.. I could keep going. Some obscure "law" seems to pale in comparison to the hard evidence that the status quo is utterly unsustainable and none of these companies seem to have a realistic plan other than trying to become too big to fail essentially.

I like some of this guy's writing on other topics, but to me this is a prime example of what happens when you get public "intellectuals" talking about subjects far outside of their area of expertise. It's not as bad as Richard Dawkins latest fall into psychosis but it's basically the same phenonmenon.

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