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I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

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Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#351

Maybe this is what will turn software engineering into an Engineering field. Right know, prompters are setting up whole company infrastructure. I personally know one. He migrated the companies database to a newer Postgres version. He was successful in the end, but I was gnawing my teeth when he described every step of the process. It sounded like "And then, I poured gasoline on the servers while smoking a cigarette.…

>He was successful in the end

So it sounds like it was fine? Why would this prompt (haha) a change in their approach to things?

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#352

There's a lot of people writing bad code. With AI being forced top down (with the promise of turning people into 10x-ers), we're going to get a lot of people writing bad code 10x faster. I really do worry - I especially worry about security. You thought supply chain security management was an impossible task with NPM? Let me introduce to AI - you can look forward to the days of AI poisoning where AIs will infiltrate,…

Not security, but I ran into a related supply-chain issue recently. I needed a library to perform a moderately complex task, and found one in the ecosystem I was working with that had been around for a while, appeared reputable, and passed my cursory inspection. So I dropped it in, got the feature implemented, and moved on.

Some time down the line, I discover CPU being maxed out, which is showing up in degraded performance in other parts of the system. I investigate, and I trace the issue to a boneheaded busy loop in this library that no human with the domain expertise to implement the library would have written. Turns out I'd missed one deeply-buried mention in the README that maintenance was being done via AI now, and basically the whole library had been rewritten from the ground up from the reliable tool it used to be to a vibecoded imitation.

Yeah, yeah, sure, bad libraries existed before all this. But there used to be signals you picked up on to filter the gold from the dreck. Those signals don't work anymore.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#353
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might not pan out to be the glorious victory of human craft as you’re imagining it to be. Here’s a slightly different future - these AI rescue consultants are bots too, just trained for this purpose. Plausible? I have already experienced claude 4.7 handle pretty complex refactors without issues. Scale and correctness aren’t even 1% of the issue it was last year. You just have to get the high level design right,…

> You just have to get the high level design right, or explicitly ask it critique your design before building it. Do you think people are not giving their agents specs and asking for input?

A thing I've noticed is that everyone thinks they prompt better than the next guy.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#354
Psychosis means inability to distinguish the real from the not real -- delusion. I don't think the article describes that, at least not in a literal or clinical sense. The author lifted a term usually applied to people who fall in love with chatbots and applied it to the context of software developers not understanding AI coding tools, and the limitations of those tools.

AI coding swept over the software industry faster than most previous trends. OOP and its predecessor "structured programming" took a lot longer. Agile and XP got traction fairly quickly but still took longer than AI -- and met with much of the same kind of resistance and dire predictions of slop and incompetence.

AI tools have led to two parallel delusions: The one Mitchell Hashimoto describes, and the notion that we (programmers) knew how to produce solid, reliable, useful, maintainable code before AI slop came along. As always with tools that give newbs, juniors, managers some leverage (real or imagined) we -- programmers -- get upset and react to the threat with dire warnings. We talk about "technical debt" and "maintainability" and "scalability."

In fact the large majority of non-trivial software projects fail to even meet requirements, much less deliver maintainable code with no tech debt. Most programmers don't know how to write good code for any measure of "good." Our entire industry looks more like a decades-long study of the Dunning-Kruger effect than a rigorous engineering discipline. If we knew how to write reliable code with no tech debt we could teach that to LLMs, but instead we reliably get back the same kind of mediocre code the LLMs trained on (ours), only the LLMs piece it together faster than we can.

With 50 years in the business behind me, and several years of mocking and dismissing AI coding whenever someone brought it up, I got dragged into it by my employer. And then I saw that with guidance and a critical eye, reasonably good specs, guardrails, it performed just as well and sometimes more throroughly than me and almost all of the people I have worked with during my career. It writes better code and notices mistakes, regressions, edge cases better than I can (at least in any reasonable amount of time).

AI coding tools only have to perform better -- for whatever that means to an organization -- than the median programmers. If we set the bar at "perfect" they of course fail, but so do we. We always have. Right now almost all of the buggy, insecure, ugly, confusing software I use came from teams of human programmers who didn't use AI. That will quickly change and I can blame the bugs and crashes and data losses and downtime on AI, we all can, but let's not pretend we're really losing ground with these tools or that we could all, as an industry, do better than the LLMs, because all experience shows that we can't.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#355

I feel in a really weird position where I both really dislike what AI is doing to the experience and practice of writing code, to the point where I want a job doing literally anything else besides using the computer, but also think that these tools are extremely powerful and only getting better. I think Mitchell's point is well taken -- it's possible for these tools to introduce rotten foundations that will only be f…

I've never had more fun coding, but the key is actually still writing the code yourself. The LLM has terrible judgment but an encyclopedic knowledge and the ability to pick out important details in a sea of information. Their worse use is producing code, but somehow that gets all the energy. Being an LLM babysitter is energy draining and you feel less and less in control. No job is worth being miserable doing something that you used to enjoy.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#356
post #300
post #113

I think AI rescue consulting is going to be come a significant mode of high value consulting, similar to specialists who come in to try and deal with a security breach or do data recovery. Purely AI written systems will scale to a point of complexity that no human can ever understand and the defect close rate will taper down and the token burn per defect rate scale up and eventually AI changes will cause on average m…

> Purely AI written systems will scale to a point of complexity that no human can ever understand I think it will be needless verbose complexity. I kind of imagine someone having an unlimited budget of free amazon stuff shipped to their house. In theory, they are living a prosperous life of plenty. In reality, they will be drowning in something that isn't prosperity.

I don't understand this point of view at all. There's a symmetry that is going entirely unappreciated by most of the comments in the thread: just as I can give Claude X,000 words of text to use to describe the code I want it to write, I can also give it some existing code and ask for X,000 words of text explaining what it does. (Call it, oh, I don't know, a "spec," maybe.)

The explanation, in turn, can be fed back to recreate the functionality of the original code.

At that point, why care about the code at all? If it works, it works. If it doesn't, tell the model to fix it. You did ask for tests, right?

That is where we're indisputably headed. It's not quite a lossless loop yet, but those who say it won't or can't happen bear a heavy burden of proof.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#357
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-technical friend of mine has just won some hospital contracts after vibecoding w/ Claude an inventory management solution for them. They gave him access to IT dept servers and he called me extremely lost on how to deploy (cant connect Claude to them) and also frustrated because the app has some sort of interesting data/state issues.

Did he lie about HIPAA compliance?

[deleted]

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#358

That people don't realize full test coverage just means every line is hit, not that everything is correct is always funny to me. (I don't view as an argument against tests, but with AI it's especially important as if you're aren't careful it'll be very happy to make coverage that is not quite right.)

Correct. Tests don’t tell you the code works. They tell you that something changed that impacts the test since the last time it did work.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#359
post #113

I think AI rescue consulting is going to be come a significant mode of high value consulting, similar to specialists who come in to try and deal with a security breach or do data recovery. Purely AI written systems will scale to a point of complexity that no human can ever understand and the defect close rate will taper down and the token burn per defect rate scale up and eventually AI changes will cause on average m…

> Purely AI written systems will scale to a point of complexity that no human can ever understand

But won’t those more complex systems presumably solve more complex problems than the systems that humans could build? Or within a comparable time?

I think it is reasonably safe to assume at this point in the game that these AI systems are increasingly able to reason rigorously about novel problems presented to them, of ever increasing complexity and sophistication.

Re: I believe there are entire companies right now under AI psychosis

#360
post #135
post #113

I think AI rescue consulting is going to be come a significant mode of high value consulting, similar to specialists who come in to try and deal with a security breach or do data recovery. Purely AI written systems will scale to a point of complexity that no human can ever understand and the defect close rate will taper down and the token burn per defect rate scale up and eventually AI changes will cause on average m…

A non-technical friend of mine has just won some hospital contracts after vibecoding w/ Claude an inventory management solution for them. They gave him access to IT dept servers and he called me extremely lost on how to deploy (cant connect Claude to them) and also frustrated because the app has some sort of interesting data/state issues.

As a SWE that has only ever worked for an employer or on his own projects, this makes me wonder: how would someone even get such a contract? Did this person already have a consulting business? Do you just call up random hospitals and ask if you can demo an inventory management system for them? Did this person already know people at the hospital? I know technical folks that do independent consulting, but even with a vibecoded product, how is it that anyone can just get such a contract?
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