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Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

dailyprincetonian.com

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Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#171

Post by autoexec »

catlikesshrimp wrote: post #126
ccortes wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad argument. All countries have laws yet criminality rates varies a lot from country to country. It’s all about the culture.

El Salvadorians (from The country) would starkly disagree with you. It took a dictator and a martial state (no human rights) to end maras in less than five years. The culture is the same.

They just replaced the street gangs with a single state operated gang. El Salvadorians still have to live in fear for their lives, but it will be the government coming for them.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#172

Post by Teever »

lokar wrote: post #8
john_strinlai wrote: post #5

huh, i had no idea princeton specifically disallowed proctors, and instead relied on an honor system. seems... like a poorly thought out system, especially given: " 29.9 percent of respondents reported that they had cheated on an assignment or exam during their time at Princeton. 44.6 percent of senior respondents reported knowledge of Honor Code violations that they chose not to report. " crazier is the people prote…

AIUI, these schools see their mission as training the next generation of leaders and elites. They aim for people with strong abilities, and moral character. And, the way you guide youth to act in a certain way is by treating them that way. If you want them to be trustworthy, you trust them. This is not a totally fringe idea.

This has to be one of the most pretentious things I've ever read about post secondary education.

I'm completely flabbergasted to learn that an Ivy League holds students to a far different and much lower standard than I what I was held to at a regular university in Canada.

From now on I don't see how I can't be skeptical of the credentials of someone from Princeton knowing that their exams weren't proctored.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#173

Post by mystraline »

girvo wrote: post #143
bad_username wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justifying one's crime because other crime exists - isnot a winning position long term.

Corporations don’t follow or care about morals, and so their customers and workers begin to follow suit.

Chomsky called corporations legal psychopaths in the documentary "The Corporation". He was right.

If companies can engage in terrible illegal behavior and then only pay 10% of profit as a fine, so can I.

If that means I cancel all streaming services, help friends also cancel streaming services, set up a Jellyfin/Navidrome box and grab everything, I do not give one fuck. Hell, the AI companies grabbed Annas Archive and Libgen. Why not me?

So, yeah. I wouldnt steal from fellow humans. I value humans. But companies and corporate "property"?

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#174

Post by thaumasiotes »

catlikesshrimp wrote: post #126
ccortes wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad argument. All countries have laws yet criminality rates varies a lot from country to country. It’s all about the culture.

El Salvadorians (from The country) would starkly disagree with you. It took a dictator and a martial state (no human rights) to end maras in less than five years. The culture is the same.

> El Salvadorians

Salvadorans.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#175

Post by throwup238 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #131
throwup238 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just the propaganda they sell during college visits. When I was at Caltech the honor code didn’t inspire any pride, because the only way anyone got through that course load was by “cheating”*. No one had any time for pride (GO BEAVERS!) An honor code is an admission that your curriculum is so sadistic, not even cheating will help. Princeton just isn’t prestigious enough to keep up that charade. * At Caltech th…

> That’s just the propaganda they sell during college visits I'm speaking generally, not just about colleges. If you've never been in a high-trust commuity, I strongly recommend travelling to find one. It's about as mind blowing as transiting from one such community to a low-trust, high-cynicism one.

Can you give examples of what you consider to be high trust communities? Without specifics it’s hard to calibrate and figure out whether we‘re talking past each other.

I spent two seasons working with the SPCC Icefall Doctors who put up the infrastructure to cross the Khumbu Icefall each year for Everest climbers so I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what a high trust community looks like (the Nepalese guiding community on Everest). Perhaps it’s because I’ve seen what happens when the situation quickly turns dire, but I’m skeptical that there’s anything special about high trust communities other than a higher baseline of morale

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#176

Post by Teever »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #131
throwup238 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just the propaganda they sell during college visits. When I was at Caltech the honor code didn’t inspire any pride, because the only way anyone got through that course load was by “cheating”*. No one had any time for pride (GO BEAVERS!) An honor code is an admission that your curriculum is so sadistic, not even cheating will help. Princeton just isn’t prestigious enough to keep up that charade. * At Caltech th…

> That’s just the propaganda they sell during college visits I'm speaking generally, not just about colleges. If you've never been in a high-trust commuity, I strongly recommend travelling to find one. It's about as mind blowing as transiting from one such community to a low-trust, high-cynicism one.

This is an unbelievably pretentious take that sounds like it's coming from someone who is either lying or was oblivious to the cheating that was going on around them.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#177

Post by lucassz »

john_strinlai wrote: post #5

huh, i had no idea princeton specifically disallowed proctors, and instead relied on an honor system. seems... like a poorly thought out system, especially given: " 29.9 percent of respondents reported that they had cheated on an assignment or exam during their time at Princeton. 44.6 percent of senior respondents reported knowledge of Honor Code violations that they chose not to report. " crazier is the people prote…

My guess is that the vast majority of those self-reported cases where relating to a take-home assignment (e.g., copying off a classmate's solution). Even without proctoring, you need to be a lot more brazen to cheat on an in-person exam.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#178

Post by twobitshifter »

lokar wrote: post #8
john_strinlai wrote: post #5

huh, i had no idea princeton specifically disallowed proctors, and instead relied on an honor system. seems... like a poorly thought out system, especially given: " 29.9 percent of respondents reported that they had cheated on an assignment or exam during their time at Princeton. 44.6 percent of senior respondents reported knowledge of Honor Code violations that they chose not to report. " crazier is the people prote…

AIUI, these schools see their mission as training the next generation of leaders and elites. They aim for people with strong abilities, and moral character. And, the way you guide youth to act in a certain way is by treating them that way. If you want them to be trustworthy, you trust them. This is not a totally fringe idea.

You can game theory it out and see that everyone gets to cheat and nobody reports is the best outcome for the group. Defectors must be punished in some way or perhaps the profs are not carrying through with punishments for cheaters.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#179

Post by mrtksn »

john_strinlai wrote: post #5

huh, i had no idea princeton specifically disallowed proctors, and instead relied on an honor system. seems... like a poorly thought out system, especially given: " 29.9 percent of respondents reported that they had cheated on an assignment or exam during their time at Princeton. 44.6 percent of senior respondents reported knowledge of Honor Code violations that they chose not to report. " crazier is the people prote…

It's nothing crazy about it. Why do you study? To learn. The exams are there to benchmark your progress. If you cheat, everything falls apart for you.

It is possible that when the metric becomes the target(AKA Goodhart's law) cheating can be beneficial but this is failure of the institution because it means you are no longer there to learn.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#180

Post by pickleRick243 »

mystraline wrote: post #141
pickleRick243 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It's a moral failure to have an issue with people shoplifting from Walgreens? Do you think they're stealing milk, eggs, and bread?

And your types are the same that would see a cashier who steals $100 go to jail.... But a manager who edits timecards of 10 people for $100 ($1000 damage) is just a civil matter. Crime, and who punishes it, has always been a political matter. The crimes have never been equal for those with power other others.

My types? The person I was responding to claims that if I have a problem with someone shoplifting alcohol and condoms from Walgreens, then it's a moral failing on my part. I responded because I found that absurd. For the record, I do not condone managers editing timecards.
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