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Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

seangoedecke.com

171–180 of 809 posts

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#171
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem partially is that AI can also fix AI slop. At this point I am in doubt whether code quality matters anymore in most non-critical software. You can ask an LLM if the code has quality issues and refactor to a _better_ version. It will reason through, prepare a plan and refactor. So now with this "better" code you can expect that your LLM will be able to deliver higher quality results but that's all the qual…

Sure, but also, AI will always find issues. It will never be mildly satisfied with the codebase and say so.

All the frontier models tell me when there are no issues. After implementing a feature I will ask it to identify issues in my implementation, list them, and support each item they identified with technical argumentation and reasoning as to why it's an issue.

If it doesn't find anything it says I didn't find anything.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#172
post #67

Multiple times per week I have the same conversation. It goes something like this: - AI will make developers irrelevant - Why? - Because LLMs can write code - Do you know what I do for a living? - Yes, write code? - Yes, about 2-5% of the time. Less now. - But you said you are a developer? - I did - So what do you do 95-98% of the time? - I understand things and then apply my ability to formulate solutions - But I ca…

Because that classifies in "developers" and "software engineers". And software engineering isn't going to disappear anytime soon

Weird. I call myself a developer because I don't have an engineering degree from an abet certified engineering program.

I recognize, in some capacity, that this isn't the norm and in the US "professional engineer" is protected and not simply "engineer", but it feels akin to stolen valor to me.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#173

> The career of a pro athlete has a maximum lifespan of around fifteen years. You have the opportunity to make a lot of money until around your mid-thirties, This sounds ageist - I'm around 40 and feel I am at my mental peak, compared to even my mid 20's. This isn't a good analogy at all, the brain doesn't "wear out" like a professional athletes' body does, it just changes its structure. The brain is a remarkable org…

He just means: by this age you've probably found your preferred title and level, unless you want to rise to more C-level / executive positions, which are rarer in any case and most folks don't want.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#174
post #92

I really wish seemingly intelligent people would stop using the abstraction analogy (like the article does). The key word is: determinism. Every level of abstraction (inc. power tools, C, etc.) added a deterministic layer you can rely on to more effectively do whatever it is that you're doing - same result, every time. LLM's use natural language to describe programming and the result is varied at the very best (hence…

People always say this but it’s misguided imo. Yes LLMs are not deterministic, but that’s totally irrelevant. You aren’t executing the LLMs output directly, you’re using the LLM to produce an artefact once that is then executed deterministically. A spec gets turned into code once. Editing the spec can cause the code to be updated but it’s not recreating the whole program each time, so why does determinism matter?

this is the way LLMs _should_ be used, as an assistant to create reliable, deterministic code. and honestly, they're fantastic when used this way. build the thing you need with the LLM, then put the LLM away.

but in practice, the current obsession with agents means people are creating applications that depend entirely on sending requests to LLMs for their core functionality. which means abandoning the whole idea of deterministic software in favor of just praying that all of the prompts you put around those API requests will lead to the right result.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, it feels like something materially changed in the US software hiring market at the start of this year to me. It feels like more and more businesses are taking a wait and see approach to avoid over-investing in human capital in the next few years. My guess is companies overhired in COVID and between that experience and an uncertain market they don't want to make the same mistake twice.

where did the excess labor force suddenly materialize in covid.

2008 had ~30k CS graduates.

2015 had ~50k CS graduates.

2021 had ~100k CS graduates.

You can extrapolate the rest.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#177
post #67

Multiple times per week I have the same conversation. It goes something like this: - AI will make developers irrelevant - Why? - Because LLMs can write code - Do you know what I do for a living? - Yes, write code? - Yes, about 2-5% of the time. Less now. - But you said you are a developer? - I did - So what do you do 95-98% of the time? - I understand things and then apply my ability to formulate solutions - But I ca…

I dunno, man. I've been doing this for 20+ years and I think we're at a really important fork in the road where there are two possibilities. The first is that AI is achieving human-level expertise and capability, but since they're now being increasingly trained on their own output they are fighting an uphill battle against model collapse. In that case, perhaps AI is going to just sort of max out at "knowing everythin…

> max out at "knowing everything"

LLMs know nothing but are great at giving the illusion that they know stuff. (It's "mansplaining as a service"; it is easier to give confident answers every time, even if they are wrong, than to program actual knowledge.) Even your first case seems wildly optimistic. The second case is a lot of "maybes" and "we don't know how but we might figure it out" that seems like a lot to bet an entire farm on, much less an entire industry of farms.

We sure are looking at a shift in the job market, but I don't think it is a fork in the road so much as a Slow/Yield sign. Companies are signalling they are willing to take promises/hope to cut labor costs whether or not the results are real. I don't think anything about current AI can kill the software development industry, but I sure do think it can do a lot to make it a lot more miserable, lower wages, and artificially reduce job demand. I don't think this has anything to do with the real capabilities of today's AI and everything to do with the perception is enough of an excuse and companies were always looking for that excuse. (Just as ageism has always existed. AI is also just a fresh excuse for companies to carry on aging out experience from their staff, especially people with long enough memories/well schooled enough memories to remember previous AI booms and busts.)

But also, yeah if some magic breakthrough makes this a real "buggy whip manufacturer moment" and not just an illusion of one, I don't mind being the engineer on that side of it. There's nothing wrong about lamenting the coming death of an industry that employs a lot of good people and tries to make good products. This is HN, you celebrate the failures, learn from them, and then you pivot or you try something new. If evidence tells me to pivot then I will pivot, I'm already debating trying something entirely new, but learning from the failures can also mean respecting "what went right?" and acknowledging how many people did a lot of good, hard work despite the outcome.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#178

It never was a lifetime career, if you don't get the dough by 35 you just failed.

i'm about 35 and i have made good money but not enough to quit. i plan on just sitting around cashing checks for another decade. with a few liquidity events along the way to sweeten the deal. should pay for my mortgage, some home renos, and fund my 401k etc. i don't foresee myself being out of work (and i don't even use AI to code! i'm just Actually Good!)

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#179

I really wish seemingly intelligent people would stop using the abstraction analogy (like the article does). The key word is: determinism. Every level of abstraction (inc. power tools, C, etc.) added a deterministic layer you can rely on to more effectively do whatever it is that you're doing - same result, every time. LLM's use natural language to describe programming and the result is varied at the very best (hence…

I grant that there's a definition of abstraction that LLMs don't fall into. But people describing LLMs as another abstraction layer aren't all misunderstanding this. Instead, they are using the term ... more abstractly.

EG: How did Mark Zuckerberg make software five years ago?

He's as capable of opening up an editor as I am, but circumstance had offered him a different interface in terms of human resources. Instead of the editor, he interacts with those humans, who produced the software. This layer between him and the built systems is an abstraction, deterministic or not.

Today, you and I have a broader delegation mandate over many tasks than we did a few years ago.

Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career

#180
post #5
post #2

> The career of a pro athlete has a maximum lifespan of around fifteen years. You have the opportunity to make a lot of money until around your mid-thirties, at which point your body just can’t keep up with it. If you believe this about your software career, how do you think your going to switch into another career as a junior and keep up?

Easy, I made the switch in my 30s, now I manage software engineers :)

Software managers are being replaced by vibe coders.In the age of AI managers are irrelevant
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