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I'm going back to writing code by hand

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Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#381

Post by hatefulmoron »

linuxftw wrote: post #340
pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

Try plan mode. The problems you're speaking about are already solved.

Plan mode improves results, but it doesn't solve the underlying problems. Pretty often Claude Opus 4.7 on xhigh will formulate a reasonable enough plan, churn for a while, then come back with a summary that it didn't stick to the plan because it wasn't accurate.

Worse, the disclaimer is buried under a bunch of "did X, did Y on line Z of file a/b/c", as if it's just a minor inconvenience. To the extent the plan was inaccurate, you're left in an undefined state where you might as well undo what it just did..

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#382

Post by hansmayer »

sevenzero wrote: post #351
hansmayer wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate, that's literally what you implied, innit? You probably "can" do it yourself, but you choose not to - I wonder why? Also the point of sarcasm is to communicate it in such way that it is obvious, without using the "/s" signifier. You know like, telling a joke at a party that you don't have to explain.

> I wonder why? Because I like to save time?

...which means you depend on the LLMs? Of course strictly "to save time". It's not like you are slowly forgetting how to start a project in the first palce or implement that db integration, right?

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#383

Post by bluefirebrand »

Kiro wrote: post #375
pron wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with both statements, but that doesn't change the problem I stated. If an agent produces reasonable code 80-90% of the time, and 10-20% of the time it makes mistakes that could render the codebase irretrievably unevolvable once they accumulate, the only thing you can do is to carefully review the agent's output 100% of the time. That it gets things right 80% of the time as opposed to 40% of the time doesn't c…

And humans produce 100% reasonable code or what? The kind of mess me and everyone I've worked with produces by hand is the inverse of that. Constant shortcuts and lazy slop through and through. Never worked anywhere where the code wasn't an entangled disarray. As soon as requirements change the abstractions fall apart and everything gets shoehorned.

> And humans produce 100% reasonable code or what?

Humans can be held accountable for their own slop

> The kind of mess me and everyone I've worked with produces by hand is the inverse of that

Yes, it's frustrating to work with isn't it? So why are you so excited to make higher volumes of this low quality slop using AI?

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#384

Post by marcosdumay »

21asdffdsa12 wrote: post #202
pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

And the solution is the same, as when it was outsourced- and the "patch" was fix it by writing spec. Thus i conclude my TED talk with the statement: LLMs are the new outsourcing and run into the same problems.

It's approximately the same problems, but stretched to an insane extent that you can never expect before it arrives.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#385

Post by IanCal »

wccrawford wrote: post #186
IanCal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine if it’s more enjoyable for you, that’s what’s important in personal projects most of the time. But we don’t follow the same things for dependencies, work of colleagues, external services, all the layers down to the silicon when trying to work. Why is AI suddenly different? We just have to do this by risk and reward. What’s the downside if it’s wrong, and how likely is an error to be found in testing and…

AI is different because it's a tool, and the user of the tool is responsible for the work performed. An outsourced developer isn't a "tool". They're a human being, and responsible for their actions. They're being paid, and they either act responsibly or they get replaced. A vibe coder is a human using a tool. The human is responsible for code quality, and if it's not good enough, they need to keep using the tool to m…

I don’t find “but who is to blame, ultimately?” All that useful.

So you figure out that someone you paid is at fault, instead of someone they hired. Your contract is with them so what really changes? What process or anything else is really different between it being a company with a manager who asks a team of devs and a company which asks an AI agent, to you as a customer?

Maybe it changes who gets fired or sued or whether one insurance or another pays out- but broadly I think none of what I said about project work really changes.

Product owners and hell even customers have been able to get software they don’t understand all the details of or for customers even get to see the code, purely driven with natural language.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#386

Post by bluefirebrand »

sevenzero wrote: post #351
hansmayer wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate, that's literally what you implied, innit? You probably "can" do it yourself, but you choose not to - I wonder why? Also the point of sarcasm is to communicate it in such way that it is obvious, without using the "/s" signifier. You know like, telling a joke at a party that you don't have to explain.

> I wonder why? Because I like to save time?

Avoiding abstractions "because I like to save time" doesn't sound like something a professional software engineer should ever say

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#388

Post by linuxftw »

hatefulmoron wrote: post #381
linuxftw wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try plan mode. The problems you're speaking about are already solved.

Plan mode improves results, but it doesn't solve the underlying problems. Pretty often Claude Opus 4.7 on xhigh will formulate a reasonable enough plan, churn for a while, then come back with a summary that it didn't stick to the plan because it wasn't accurate. Worse, the disclaimer is buried under a bunch of "did X, did Y on line Z of file a/b/c", as if it's just a minor inconvenience. To the extent the plan was in…

You have to review the plan and fill in any missing gaps or correct anything that's wrong. Plan mode often isn't one shot, it might take a few iterations, but once the plan is nailed down, the results are usually very good.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#389

Post by rwmj »

brightball wrote: post #374
raincole wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "people" in your hypothetical story have been wrong the whole time. The correct attitude is: When AI can complete lines, you still have to read and understand the code. When AI can complete whole functions, you still have to read and understand the code. When AI can complete features and tickets, you still have to read and understand the code.

I heard a talk from a VP at NVIDIA a couple of months ago and he echoed this. Essentially their policy is "you are still fully responsible for the code you ship, whether AI helps with it or not"

While also no doubt telling C-level that the AI can write code completely automatically.

The developers in this scenario are there to absorb the blame when things go wrong. "Human crumple-zones" to protect the company.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#390

Post by noelsusman »

pron wrote: post #327
daishi55 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The generated code is more than fine, it’s good in many cases. And I read it :) Indeed for the task of “jump into an unfamiliar codebase and make a requested change that aligns with existing styles and patterns, and uses existing functionality” I would say something like opus 4.7 exceeds the capabilities of most developers.

I agree with both statements, but that doesn't change the problem I stated. If an agent produces reasonable code 80-90% of the time, and 10-20% of the time it makes mistakes that could render the codebase irretrievably unevolvable once they accumulate, the only thing you can do is to carefully review the agent's output 100% of the time. That it gets things right 80% of the time as opposed to 40% of the time doesn't c…

I guess I don't understand how this logic doesn't apply to human developers.
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