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Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

tomshardware.com

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Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#31

Post by claw-el »

Avshalom wrote: post #12
claw-el wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only allowed to charge “reasonable” usage fee means no other non-usage fee allowed or it is purposely designed to allow other kinds of fees?

https://www.nrdc.org/bio/jc-kibbey/utility-accountability-10... To be clear this only about some utility companies.

Thank you for sharing this. I get that the company making the capital investment wants to get a return of 10% from their investment. The part I don’t understand is, why aren’t the return on investment being covered by the increased usage from the data centers (while the rate per usage stays flat)?

If the increase in usage (with rates staying flat) is insufficient to cover for the return on investment, then who is making the decision to take the risk for making these capital investment? The risk taker can definitely ‘pay’ for an over confidence in the market.

If it is because the increased usage of the grid as a whole reaches a step function requiring more investment, the system can have a gradually increasing usage price rate.

I am trying to find out if someone in the system is trying to eat up the benefits and publicly say “it’s because of AI” or maybe I am not understanding the situation well.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#32

Post by jorvi »

tempaccount5050 wrote: post #30
UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

Yep. 10000 gallons per query, spews out toxic water, contaminates the water supply, uses more power than an entire state, and on and on. I'm convinced it's a psyop to prevent the US's progress in tech. It's so over the top crazy and obviously false, but everyone I know is falling for it.

They might be wrong on this one, but check the history on cancer alley, or the legalized massive PFAS dumping in rivers the world over, that has now polluted the earth so thoroughly you cannot escape going over the maximum recommended body serum. Same for microplastics.

It is absolutely justified to be extremely suspicious of big corporate. They've earned it.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#33

Post by fooqux »

rayiner wrote: post #14
Avshalom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because as part of their legal monopolies they are only allowed to charge a "reasonable" usage fee. ETA: utility companies make profit on capex, not opex

That's mostly incorrect. In Maryland, like in most places in the country, the distribution infrastructure is controlled by regulated monopolies that buy power on the market from generators. Your bills separate out the fees for usage and the fees for distribution, and the Maryland PSC has to approve both.

Yes, but the cost per kilowatt is at least partially based on capex recovery. That might be approved by the PSC but what they approve are capex projects and the recovery of them.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#35

Post by jamescrowley »

tempaccount5050 wrote: post #30
UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

Yep. 10000 gallons per query, spews out toxic water, contaminates the water supply, uses more power than an entire state, and on and on. I'm convinced it's a psyop to prevent the US's progress in tech. It's so over the top crazy and obviously false, but everyone I know is falling for it.

‘More power than an entire state’. Yep - take the Stratos data center project in Utah, the first phase of which is expected to consume 3GW and at full capacity is expected to be 9GW. By comparison, the entire state of Utah currently uses about 4GW.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#36

Post by fooqux »

morkalork wrote: post #20
Avshalom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because as part of their legal monopolies they are only allowed to charge a "reasonable" usage fee. ETA: utility companies make profit on capex, not opex

Perhaps utilities should be state owned where any profits are used to offset the tax load on the citizens..

Because there's this belief that a for-profit company will naturally be more efficient. No idea if that's actually true in practice though. Or if efficiency > the profits the company takes.

I don't know of any large community ran utilities, just small ones. I'm guessing the scale starts being a problem eventually.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#37

Post by lostlogin »

UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29
timmg wrote: post #25

It's not clear from the article whether this is just datacenters -- or if that is just the convenient boogeyman. The grid operator for the northeast, according to my Governor, has been well-behind in building out infrastructure. Of course new datacenters cause more load. But so do new houses (we're building as many as we can) and electric cars, etc.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

> increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water

Wait till they hear about big Ag and how they use, abuse and ‘pay’ for water, while farming deserts.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#38

Post by brianwawok »

claw-el wrote: post #31
Avshalom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nrdc.org/bio/jc-kibbey/utility-accountability-10... To be clear this only about some utility companies.

Thank you for sharing this. I get that the company making the capital investment wants to get a return of 10% from their investment. The part I don’t understand is, why aren’t the return on investment being covered by the increased usage from the data centers (while the rate per usage stays flat)? If the increase in usage (with rates staying flat) is insufficient to cover for the return on investment, then who is mak…

Two things I’d think

1) the first MW is cheaper to generate than the 100th. Newer plants. Cheaper fuels. More efficient. You run your good stuff always, for peak it’s on demand.

2) the cost of the old plants are already paid for, if adding a new data center requires a new plant; may add a big cost with a 50 year payback.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#39

Post by turlockmike »

claw-el wrote: post #31
Avshalom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nrdc.org/bio/jc-kibbey/utility-accountability-10... To be clear this only about some utility companies.

Thank you for sharing this. I get that the company making the capital investment wants to get a return of 10% from their investment. The part I don’t understand is, why aren’t the return on investment being covered by the increased usage from the data centers (while the rate per usage stays flat)? If the increase in usage (with rates staying flat) is insufficient to cover for the return on investment, then who is mak…

It's because it's a weird mix of subsidies, price controls, regulations and bureaucracy that has completely distorted the market incentives.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#40

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

Maybe the AI guys should use the AI first to develop fusion reactors they can then use to power the data centers.

I honestly think they should pay fully for the infrastructure that provides power for them. It's not fair to have regular users pay for this.

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