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Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

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Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#621

Post by gambiting »

chr1 wrote: post #590
gambiting wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But someone has to answer. Saying "I really don't care what happens to them" is just such a lazy way out of this conversation. The whole problem is that we have to decide as a society what to do with them. You suggested work programs - great! Now give some examples of work programs you would put 12 years old in. If you can't or won't, then you have no more solution to this than someone who thinks having an idea equal…

For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_service . 12 year old would be pretty fine to spend 4-5 hours a day cleaning streets for a while. Btw. I am not advocating for work programs as a particularly good solution, expelling and letting the parents to figure out what to do with their misbehaving child is a good solution too. School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do…

>> School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do not want to learn.

It's actually neither of those things, because we discovered hundreds of years ago that having an educated population is good for everyone. No, it's not a prison, but it's not a privilege either - you have to be in school until certain age. Work is not substitute for education.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#623

Post by dotancohen »

gambiting wrote: post #621
chr1 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_service . 12 year old would be pretty fine to spend 4-5 hours a day cleaning streets for a while. Btw. I am not advocating for work programs as a particularly good solution, expelling and letting the parents to figure out what to do with their misbehaving child is a good solution too. School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do…

>> School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do not want to learn. It's actually neither of those things, because we discovered hundreds of years ago that having an educated population is good for everyone. No, it's not a prison, but it's not a privilege either - you have to be in school until certain age. Work is not substitute for education.

Have an educated population does not mean that every last uncivilized brat needs to participate. Especially if he is distracting other people from acquiring an education.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#624

Post by chr1 »

gambiting wrote: post #621
chr1 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_service . 12 year old would be pretty fine to spend 4-5 hours a day cleaning streets for a while. Btw. I am not advocating for work programs as a particularly good solution, expelling and letting the parents to figure out what to do with their misbehaving child is a good solution too. School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do…

>> School is a privilege for smart children to study, not a prison for those who do not want to learn. It's actually neither of those things, because we discovered hundreds of years ago that having an educated population is good for everyone. No, it's not a prison, but it's not a privilege either - you have to be in school until certain age. Work is not substitute for education.

Being in school does not make one educated. Keeping disruptive child in the same room with normal children, means we get fewer educated people, not more.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#625

Post by chr1 »

gambiting wrote: post #620
chr1 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to school at 6 years, our schools were for 10 years, and at 16 i went to university. At the university with us were some 20 year olds, who went to school at 7 years, were not able to get to university in their 17, were drafted to army at 18 and came back. 20 year old being around 16-17 year olds did not cause any catastrophe. 20 year old who wants to study is not going to cause any problem for the public schoo…

>> the parents are supposed to make choices for them Parents don't have any choice in this either. A child under 18 should be in full time education - there is nothing to choose, maybe except for the school they can be in. >>20 year old being around 16-17 year olds did not cause any catastrophe. I like that you shifted "adults with 15 year olds" to 20 year olds with 16-17 year olds.

> Parents don't have any choice in this either.

That's a very fucked up thing to say, governments or random strangers from internet do not have a right to decide how parent raises his child. Do you even have a child?

> I like that you shifted "adults with 15 year olds" to 20 year olds with 16-17 year olds

It was just my own experience, if you want another example in early years of Soviet Union there were 40 year olds learning to read with 6 year olds.

And in general i don't see why any combination of ages should be a problem?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#627

Post by rolph »

sholladay wrote: post #324
danpalmer wrote: post #129

The only effective punishment/threat that I saw work on my bullies at school was the threat to remove one of them from the football team and prevent him from playing for the school. He turned it around and was ok after that. It was highly effective because it was a bigger punishment than those used for not doing your homework, and because it was highly relevant to him specifically. It worked because we had 16 student…

Some of the generic policies can be very strange, too. I once got detention for getting punched in the arm. I was much taller than any of the school bullies, so they mostly didn't start anything with me. But every now and then, they would try. The punch barely hurt and I didn't really care, but another student saw it and reported it. The staff knew what happened, understood that I was the only one that got hit, and t…

thats called collective punishment when persons aside from the offender are also punished for the crimes of that one offender.

a school being a government entity, cant be doing that malarchy.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#628

Post by rdtsc »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #566
rdtsc wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zero tolerance can lead to a new type of bullying: state sponsored. Absolutely. The more of a victim you're perceived the more attention and the more punishment the bully gets. If the system overreacts, bullies would be stupid not to use the over-reaction in their favor. One of the kids at my daughter's school figured it out and was getting others in trouble by falling down then telling the teacher so and so pushed…

This doesn't sound like a result of "zero tolerance" policies, unless the one faking being attacked was also punished, but you didn't mention it. And if that's the case "zero tolerance" would on the face of it seem to discourage this kind of fakery by punishing the faker too. Even the comment before doesn't sound that relevant to the normal complaint because again, the two parties aren't both being punished, just the…

> This doesn't sound like a result of "zero tolerance" policies, unless the one faking being attacked was also punished, but you didn't mention it.

The implication is that the system overreacts one way only, taking the word of the victim at face value and then applying "zero tolerance" towards the perceived bully.

Like I mentioned "if the system overreacts, bullies would be stupid not to use the over-reaction in their favor". Think of it like a tree that's unbalanced and leaning heavily one way, well you can make it fall on someone by pushing it in the way it leans, it won't take much effort to do that, it's already leaning as opposed taking tree standing tall and trying to topple that down on someone.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#629

Post by abc123abc123 »

salviati wrote: post #382
abc123abc123 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> A light slap in the face can be very beneficial for snapping hysterical children out of tantrums Even “light” physical punishment is not proven beneficial. The research generally does not find a safe beneficial threshold where hitting becomes good if mild enough; it finds that physical punishment may suppress behavior briefly but is associated with worse outcomes over time. “Light” changes the severity, not the evi…

Where in the quoted sentence do you see the word punishment?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#630

Post by abc123abc123 »

CJefferson wrote: post #477
abc123abc123 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Where the proof that caning people for mistakes creates in the the desire for vengeance where they will hit their children. Naughty children won't work, or do vocational training. Have you worked with children?

Depending on the age, yes. Strict discipline, punishment and rewards works very well. What does not work, is the past 30 years of wokeism, where children are granted their every wish.
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