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Mythical Man Month

martinfowler.com

131–140 of 219 posts

Re: Mythical Man Month

#131
post #47

Notably, his essay “no silver bullet” states that there has never been a new technology or way of thinking or working that has led to a 10X increase in the speed of software development. That was true for almost seventy years until roughly last year. AI is the silver bullet - my output is genuinely 10X what it was before claude code existed.

I haven't yet seen anyone with a concrete example project (public ideally, but even describing private efforts in enough detail to enable potential criticism would be fine) making a claim as strong as 10x. Are you willing to break the mould and show us what we're all missing?

I can state one thing that I'm sure a lot of people connect with, and I don't know if this is 10x, probably not.

I've always been a backend engineer, never front end. And almost every team I've been on has lacked any front end skills at all, so all our tools end up being a mash of scripts, maybe sometimes an API.

Now we are all front end engineers creating UIs for things we could never do before, and this starts API first development, so the CLI + UI are just calling APIs. Nothing new here, but this used to be what teams do, now a single person does it.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#132

Notably, his essay “no silver bullet” states that there has never been a new technology or way of thinking or working that has led to a 10X increase in the speed of software development. That was true for almost seventy years until roughly last year. AI is the silver bullet - my output is genuinely 10X what it was before claude code existed.

Oh spare me! Anyone can "output" 10x more code. Fred knew you could slap 10x more people on a team and "output" 10x more code.

What this article explains is why despite your feelings of untouchable success, on average the experience of using software just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, making this the worst era for software quality that I've ever lived through

Didn't we already do this with every company looking to hire "rockstar programmers"? I don't recall that that ended well.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#133
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't yet seen anyone with a concrete example project (public ideally, but even describing private efforts in enough detail to enable potential criticism would be fine) making a claim as strong as 10x. Are you willing to break the mould and show us what we're all missing?

10x what? 10x revenue? 10x features shipped? Whats the measure, is it 10x speed of dev like parent comment? Because an unqualified 10x could mean 10x SLOC which is trivial with an agent but has negative value. Assuming 10x on the speed of dev, Is the vscode repo a decent example? Recently they've been all in on AI augmented development so i'm thinking they'd be a reasonable subject? How do you isolate out what counts…

Its 10x code generation with .5x quality at best and all other parts of the SDLC are at 1.x or worse.

AI is not delivering 10x shareholder value, anywhere. Software developers have quite the level of hubris about how important they are to companies. Yes our work is very complex and takes a certain mindset to do it well. It takes a lot of other roles to have a successful business, many of those roles will use AI to help draft slide decks, emails, etc. and that's the limit for them.

Look at recent companies doing layoffs claiming its because of AI, like CloudFlare and Coinbase, do their reported financials paint the picture that they are crushing it with AI? No, its net losses into the $100's of millions.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm building an open source Google Photos alternative. Have a look at my project and tell me if you think you could do all this at the same speed without an LLM: https://opennoodle.de Direct github link: https://github.com/open-noodle/gallery

It doesn't completely blow away your argument, but you forked Immich and gave it to a LLM. Which is arguably slightly easier than starting from scratch. Nothing wrong with forks though.

Sounds like you're nitpicking on whether or not LLMs make you faster by saying that working on existing code is easier than starting from scratch? I think you've missed the point.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#135
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't yet seen anyone with a concrete example project (public ideally, but even describing private efforts in enough detail to enable potential criticism would be fine) making a claim as strong as 10x. Are you willing to break the mould and show us what we're all missing?

I can state one thing that I'm sure a lot of people connect with, and I don't know if this is 10x, probably not. I've always been a backend engineer, never front end. And almost every team I've been on has lacked any front end skills at all, so all our tools end up being a mash of scripts, maybe sometimes an API. Now we are all front end engineers creating UIs for things we could never do before, and this starts API…

It would not have taken you long to learn frontend if you wanted to. Now you can use AI to generate it but you don't understand any of the generated code.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#137
post #35

Fortunate to be reminded of this right now, especially the pull-quote about conceptual integrity. This is the reason why AI-assisted programming has not turned out to be the silver bullet we have been hoping for, at least yet. Muddled prompting by humans gets you the Homer Simpson car you wished for, that will eventually collapse under its own weight. I've been thinking a lot about Programming as Theory Building [0]…

[flagged]

Re: Mythical Man Month

#138

Notably, his essay “no silver bullet” states that there has never been a new technology or way of thinking or working that has led to a 10X increase in the speed of software development. That was true for almost seventy years until roughly last year. AI is the silver bullet - my output is genuinely 10X what it was before claude code existed.

This seems like somewhat of a mischaracterization. He contrasted improvements in software with improvements in hardware, saying we'd never have something like a Moore's law for software where performance doubled or cost halved equally rapidly. Churning out software faster doesn't mean it's any better.

We also seem to fall into these ruts of not understanding what is meant by labor productivity. When an economist is presenting the common outputs / inputs measure, they don't mean raw quantity of output. They're talking about the value added by outputs divided by the value of inputs. Churning out software faster that doesn't earn anybody additional revenue is not making us more productive. It's disheartening that even c-suites with business education don't seem to understand this. That's not to say there is no productivity gain. Plenty of AI-adjacent hyperscalers are seeing ridiculous growth right now, but no non-startup is seeing revenue 10x what it was the year before, not even NVIDIA.

A lot of this is just basic diminishing marginal utility. There is only so much value to be added. Software is usually either a semi-automated controller or human decision making augmenter to some kind of physical manufacturing process, or entertainment, when we talk about ultimately delivering value. Everything else is an intermediate input. We can only be so entertained. For physical goods, we have food, space, clothing seemingly at a sufficient level to satisfy just about everyone, with the reasons for value not being maximized having to do with distribution. Unless your software manages to solve borders, bigotry, cultural incompatibility, poverty, mental illess, physical illness, violence, I'm not sure what the other big rocks are. Software can absolutely be a key part of infrastructure to facilitate distribution. That's exactly what the Internet is, along with all the backend business and logistics systems out there in existence. But without hitting the true big rocks, where is the 10x value supposed to come from? We're talking incremental gains simply because we're not in the dark ages any more and incremental gains are all that's there. Short of Star Trek style replicators and transporters, I'm not sure what could realistically multiply global value by 10.

Without the value, then sure, you may be churning out 10 times as many discrete projects used by at least one person, or 10 times as many lines of code, but that was never the point. Your personalized notes and grocery ordering apps you share with your wife might excite you for a few weeks, but I can assure you they aren't going to revolutionize your life.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#139

Look, I read it and loved it 25 hyears ago. Fred Brooks wrote that book when they were programming IBM operating systems in assembly language. Times have really, really changed - do not pay attention to the messages of this book unless for historical fun.

So men and months have suddenly become fungible ?

You should tell these AI companies and we could have AGI tomorrow if only they would throw a few thousand more men on the project.

Or perhaps today's men are coding agents? You can spin up as many agents as you care to, so asymptotically any project should be completable in zero time, regardless of complexity.

Re: Mythical Man Month

#140

It's interesting to revisit Brooks' "surgical team" in light of AI. For example, I frequently have Claude act as a "toolsmith", creating bespoke project-specific tools on the fly, which are then documented in Skills that Claude can use going forward. What has changed is that a) One person (or rather, one person-AI hybrid) plays all the roles within the surgical team, and b) Internal frictions such as cost, developmen…

> frequently have Claude act as a "toolsmith", creating bespoke project-specific tools on the fly, which are then documented in Skills that Claude can use going forward. I also do this. e.g. after watching Claude burn tokens building and then deploying a docker image multiple times (and it taking extra time), I asked it to just create a build.and.deploy.sh script. I also then have a test.deploy.sh script that Claude…

I do something similar, but tell the agent to write a recipe into a justfile. Then it can run `just` and get a self-documenting list of all the tooling for the project (just build, just test, etc.)
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