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The Disappearance of the Public Bench

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Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#161

Post by chadgpt2 »

scoofy wrote: post #119
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anti-social behavior can be trivially defined by a kind of categorical imperative. That is: does this behavior, if universalized, render the public service non-functional. It is increasingly naive to consider these concerns simply in a cultural context or some power dynamic. Your own policy is anti-social then. If we universalized your suggested policy of having strict(er?) prevention and/or (probably and) enforceme…

Do we need a war on drugs? I don’t think so. We just need a war on people making services unpleasant. Asking someone to leave a subway platform because they are not using the public transportation system for transportation is not a war on drugs. It’s just making people exit a subway station.

It is a problem if, no matter where someone is, they are always asked to leave that place. At that point you cannot special-plead the subway system.

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#162

Post by chadgpt2 »

nradov wrote: post #123
jmyeet wrote: post #32

I believe expensive housing is at the root of many societal problems, it's not even funny. We don't have park benches because we've adopted hostile architecture to keep out "undesirables". This mostly means "homeless people". But why are there so many homeless people? The primary reason is housing unaffordability [1]. One of the funny things about China is that there are a lot of "experts" who insist on reading the t…

You're spreading a common misconception. No one really "owns" a home in China. What they're usually purchasing is a 70-year lease on the land. The hope is that the lease can be renewed on favorable terms but there's no guarantee.

It sounds that you spend money and receive a service which cannot be converted into an investment. Are the people housed, in the end? Is the housing market distorted by rampant speculation? Does the system work?

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#163

Post by ryoshoe »

cameldrv wrote: post #112
Loughla wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to that question in a society that allows (mostly) autonomy of choice is that we let them die on the street. I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem. I believe it will just take it off of the streets and out of the public consciousness.

I have a very good friend who was an addict, and I tried to help him turn his life around in many ways, but I couldn’t figure out a way. Professionals told me “he has to hit rock bottom.” Anyhow he wound up getting arrested and spent a couple of weeks in jail where he got clean and decided to turn his life around. He went on to get a couple of masters degrees, get married, have two kids, and has a good job. He credit…

At the core of this is that your friend came to the realization that he wanted to change his life. He can credit his time in jail for this. However that doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone, or that there's only a single potential trigger to get someone to recover from drug addiction

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#164

Post by HEmanZ »

mmooss wrote: post #159
HEmanZ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the guy who screamed “I’m going to f*ing kill you!” Out of nowhere at my daughter and then chased us, or set fire to random trees in my neighborhood for fun, or cut the copper wiring off the side of my house, or took sledge hammers to local park statues, these people are definitely not a problem. No the problem is really the people who think it should stop. Those horrible, insensitive people. They’r being so self…

> Every one of these is a true example I have witnessed, along with too much other insanity to write down, from just the last year in Seattle Now that you bring it up, it looks to me like you're exaggerating or extremely unlucky. It reminds me of the litany of crimes people claim happen with immigrants; weren't they eating the cats in one town? Somehow in my experience in urban life, in many different neighborhoods,…

What cities? You’re right that I never saw anything like this when I lived in Oslo, nor did I see anything like it living in Sydney.

I’m reacting to a specific environment in two major west coast cities, Seattle which I now live, and San Francisco where I regularly travel for work. What I’m describing is not unlucky in these cities, it’s “I take the light rail to pioneer square for work every day.”

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#165

Post by HEmanZ »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #153
HEmanZ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the guy who screamed “I’m going to f*ing kill you!” Out of nowhere at my daughter and then chased us, or set fire to random trees in my neighborhood for fun, or cut the copper wiring off the side of my house, or took sledge hammers to local park statues, these people are definitely not a problem. No the problem is really the people who think it should stop. Those horrible, insensitive people. They’r being so self…

You are describing actual crimes, not homelessness. Nobody is saying that people who are violent should just be left to their own devices.

And no one is saying eat the homeless.

My city is deadlocked on doing anything about the literal crimes I’ve described because acting against violent offenders is seen as oppressing the downtrodden. Building new shelter capacity is insanely difficult because no one wants concentrations of this near them, and concentrated homeless services turn the area into a waste land (like pioneer square) due to the amount of criminal and antisocial behavior. Raising enough money in taxes seems out of the question because everyone thinks someone else should pay.

So you get common crime and antisocial behavior in much of the city and no one can do anything about it.

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#166

Post by [deleted] »

chadgpt2 wrote: post #158
scoofy wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whatever a "categorical imperative" might be or represent If you do not understand the concept of a categorical imperative, I would strongly suggest studying some ethical philosophy. There are folks that have spent lifetimes trying to figure out the best ways to see human flourishing, and they have some very, very good ideas.

Another categorical imperative is "everyone who is bullied by the city and only allowed to sleep in the transit system shall sleep in the transit system" This one is fine. If the city doesn't like it, it should legalise sleeping on park benches. Another one is "it costs society nothing if you occupy an empty seat on a nearly empty car". Most people don't sleep in the transit system when the transit system is busy, an…

[deleted]

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#167

Post by RAMJAC »

mlsu wrote: post #149
JoshTriplett wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange false dichotomy. Either we do absolutely nothing to help people, or we involuntarily incarcerate them? The actually progressive option is to provide meaningful public support programs , and also make housing affordable (by building enough housing). The US mostly doesn't do either of those, but it should.

At least in California, there are a lot of public support programs. I mean, a looooot of public support programs. A LOT. Like, to the point where the state is spending tens of thousands of dollars for each homeless person, and probably north of $100k per person per year for a subset. Talk to a firefighter or paramedic in a CA city sometime. They will tell you, there's "regulars" that they have to deal with every sing…

I live in a shelter, if you looked at the cost per person, it would probably be north 20k per resident to be housed here. This is the overhead of rent, utilities, salaries for case worker, security, maintenance, etc. When you include other parts of the system, it's easily another 5k; this isn't even taking in account of SNAP, cash assistance, medicaid, etc. There is a whole system and it ain't cheap.

Now, this isn't to say living is great. You are living in a dorm with 20+ felons, you have bedbugs to contend with, and it's dirty. I still have a normal ass job as well. Being homeless fucking sucks.

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#168

Post by guilhas »

Was in a bigger city in the weekend, and they don't have many benches. But it was nice in a way because people just sat anywhere every stair case step, every curb, grass patches, next to a tree, train station floor,...

Where there was a bench 5 people would sit, where there wasn't 15 did

Of course it was a pleasant weather otherwise...

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#169

Post by [deleted] »

chadgpt2 wrote: post #160
scoofy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do some people litter when they are steps away from a garbage can? Why do some people play their phones at high volume on public transit? Anti-social behavior comes in all shapes and sizes. There is a distinction between pro- and anti-social behaviors beyond capitalist and socialist systems. You can have anti-social behavior in both systems. You can have pro-social behaviors in both systems. This should be fairly…

The USSR did massively reduce homelessness by providing homes. They discovered the surprising fact they if someone has a home they are not homeless.

[deleted]

Re: The Disappearance of the Public Bench

#170

Post by [deleted] »

chadgpt2 wrote: post #158
scoofy wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whatever a "categorical imperative" might be or represent If you do not understand the concept of a categorical imperative, I would strongly suggest studying some ethical philosophy. There are folks that have spent lifetimes trying to figure out the best ways to see human flourishing, and they have some very, very good ideas.

Another categorical imperative is "everyone who is bullied by the city and only allowed to sleep in the transit system shall sleep in the transit system" This one is fine. If the city doesn't like it, it should legalise sleeping on park benches. Another one is "it costs society nothing if you occupy an empty seat on a nearly empty car". Most people don't sleep in the transit system when the transit system is busy, an…

[deleted]
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