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Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

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Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#721

As an American that’s lived in Poland for the last decade: - it was kind of inevitable once Poland stopped being oppressed by its neighbors. The USSR, Nazi Germany, the German Empire / Prussia, Austria, Imperial Russia, etc. have basically been dividing the country since the 1780s. Without these restrictions, Poland is a natural leader in its region purely on population alone. - A general lack of ideological “mind vi…

"it was kind of inevitable once Poland stopped being oppressed by its neighbors"

No. Not at all inevitable. Poland might have descended into kleptocracy, e.g. Hungary. That this did not happen is worthy of investigation. I'm not holding my breath however; the findings would probably not be welcome.

"A general lack of ideological 'mind viruses' that seem to plague the western world"

Indeed. Poland frequently disappoints the rest of the EU with its stubborn indifference to obligatory Western moral panics.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Polish millenial the perspective is a rollercoaster. In one way the transformation of absolutely everything over and over and over is mind blowing in a positive way. OTOH we're also all paranoid running on what feels like a never ending hamster wheel of inflation, raises and mortgages. And then Gen-Z's feel straight get up locked out of everything. We visit western European countries and it's like WTF it's cheap…

Same story in Lithuania

Also economic inequality is quite differently shaped across ages

People over 60 are poor, 40..60 are a mixed bag, 20..40 are struggling to keep up.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IIRC Polish mathematicians were close to being the world's best prior to WWII That's right. The Lwów-Warsaw School, the Warsaw Schools, the Kraków School, and so on were big during the interbellum. There was a good deal of activity in the space of mathematics, logic, and philosophy within that scope (art, theater, film, literature, etc. had their respective flowerings). However, what I had in mind was that educatio…

Stanislaus II Augustus was a Russian tool, nobody ever felt in Poland like in ancient Rome. The few scientific achievements from the interwar period are gone forever without heritage or even continuity, and they're not even that impressing comparatively to other European countries. Modern Poles put all money into real estate and crypto scams, that's their intellectual sophistication.

> Stanislaus II Augustus was a Russian tool

This is an ahistorical view lacking nuance. Stanislaus found himself in an impossible situation. He was not the Russian pawn you uncharitably make him out to be. Rather, he often used his position to strengthen the Commonwealth in ways that were at odds with Russian interest. Recall that he inherited the throne of a state that was already on its last legs. Russia held a knife at the Commonwealth's throat. He was walking a very thin tightrope with Russia. His efforts, at the very least, contributed to giving Poles a greater cultural ability to survive the subsequent partition, giving it focus.

> nobody ever felt in Poland like in ancient Rome.

I suspect you (uncharitably) suppose I mean everyone in the streets was walking around speaking Latin. That's obviously not what I meant. I am referring specifically to the educated class - sons of the nobility, magnates, clergy, statesmen, diplomats, senators, scholars, the royal court, even country squires. The szlachta's Sarmatian culture saw itself as a spiritual successor to the Roman Republic, and it showed.

> The few scientific achievements from the interwar period are gone forever without heritage or even continuity [...etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...]

This is such a fantastically amusing few lines.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#724
post #118
post #12

It certainly helps to be neighbor with an economically strong but demographically weak and overly beaurocratic country that hungers for eager, competent workers.

The Polish economy is not built on sending workers to Germany.

Who said that? It certainly helps. Poland has close trade and manufacturing ties to Germany and has rightfully developed from a "cheap" image to "quality that's still affordable" image.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Poland was the first country to make a remarkable peaceful transition from a bankrupt, failed Soviet satellite state. In what sense? Czechia is richer per capita. Almost all of the former Soviet satellite states in eastern Europe have had largely peaceful (since 1991) sustained economic growth. The exceptions are exactly those countries which continue to have Russian troops occupying portions, namely Belarus, Ukra…

Romania?

Romania is still occupied by Russia. Unlike with Germany, where the East and West reunited, Romania failed to reunite with Eastern Moldova (Western Moldova is in Romania) because of Russian interference in the 1990s. The Russians invaded Transnistria (which was never Romanian) and expanded a bit west. So the Russians still occupy part of the land that is by right Romanian and still have political influence in R. Moldova. That is slowly being eroded.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#726
The story of Poland is also a story of migration.

A significant percentage of the polish population participated in what is labled today economic migration.

They went Germany, Ireland, UK experienced an influx of migrants taking up all the low pay jobs.

But that was before the Russian bots took over the news on the internet and Russia-sponsored extreme right parties entered the parliaments. So the political effect from the migrants was roughly equivalent to their impact on pop

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy Ah, the Polish MAGA. Probably Russian-influenced as well.

[flagged]

>Ehhh, because only MAGA complains

No.

Because Russia has specifically invested in propaganda efforts influencing rural voters in Poland to support Polish far-right parties (and PiS), using it to foster anti-EU and anti-Ukraine sentiment.

The Polish farmers blocking the border checkpoints used for delivery of military aid to Ukraine a few years ago as "ptotest" was a mirror image tactic of the Canadian conservative truckers blocking the roads.

Russian investment and collusion with conservative and authoritarian movements worldwide — and MAGA in particular — is well-documented. I welcome you to read Mueller's report.

>Don't politicise where it is not applicable

Don't tell me what to do.

You're out of your depth here to determine what's applicable, and what isn't.

>this has nothing to do with the cat fight between 'democrats' and republicans

It has everything to do with the geopolitics and the war taking place in Ukraine, in which both Poland and the US hold a stake (and are both targeted by Russian influence campaigns on that dimension).

Not the "cat fight". The real war.

Look, I'm a Ukrainian-American who went to Ukraine during the war (spent a month in Kyiv in 2023), and lived in Poland for about a year.

I speak Ukrainian, Russian, and English at native proficiency, and I know enough Polish to be renting an apartment there, owning a car, etc.

Russian disinformation campaigns are my special interest. I can tell you a lot about Surkov's postmodern Firehose-of-Falsehood machinery, Gerasimov's hybrid war doctrine, and how it was instrumental in the 2014 invasion of Ukraine as well as 2016 US election meddling and the rise of MAGA.

I can direct you to RAND and RUSI studies, books and articles by Pomerantsev, Applebaum, Gessen, which will give you a wider look into Russia's hand in the right-wing "conservative" voices across the world and in the EU in particular (Orban in Hungary, Fico in Slovakia, AfD in Germany, and PiS supporters in Poland).

But you really won't learn anything if you insist on projecting your myopic US-centric attitude that purports that MAGA is a dem-vs-not-dem "cat fight".

I'm happy that you get to live in a world where you can avoid "politicizing" politics.

Out in the real world, complaining about the EU while living in a EU country whose economy was lifted from shambles by the EU is inherently a political issue.

And it's not coincidentally similar to MAGA supporters e.g. rallying against Obamacare only to discover that they literally depend on it for survival, and in general, voting against Democrats while benefitting from and depending on the policies that Democrats established.

And it's not coincidental that the Polish anti-EU rural voters are sharing the anti-immigration, "they took our jobs" sentiment with MAGA even as immigration provided an immense boost to both the US and Polish economy.

Ukrainians number in millions in Poland because of the war; MAGA's anti-Mexican sentiment maps 1:1 to anti-Ukrainian sentiment in Poland — specifically because Russian information warfare efforts help fuel both (it's a literal industry in Russia, with infamous St. Petersburg human-staffed "bot farms" being well exposed by now).

I'm not saying that all MAGA is like that, but there is a sufficiently big overlap (and a sufficient amount of evidence) that me saying that those rural anti-EU folks are Polish MAGA has a lot more weight than you are realizing.

As other commenters have pointed out, by the way.

So, if I may: please revert your downvote and learn.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this was largely the particular cause in this case... The strong domestic market insulated the economy from international economic shocks.

The US also has a very strong domestic market and yet it was not "insulated"

That's because the shocks came from the domestic US market!
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