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Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

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Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#221

Post by pneumonic »

EGreg wrote: post #99
Havoc wrote: post #24

Whether it's AMP or manifest 3 or android source shenanigan or attempts to replace cookies with their FLOC nonsense or this...Google is rapidly turning into a malicious force when it comes to the open internet

Don't you see it closing all around you? It's not just Google. It's governments, corporations, all around the world, simultaneously. The noose is being tightened gradually, then all at once. And it's coming for all of us: https://community.qbix.com/t/increasing-state-of-surveillanc... The threats above interlock by design or convergence: Identity layer (1-5) creates the prerequisite for the others. Once identity is e…

It doesn't help that your first sentence makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist riding his hobby horse. I read on despite that, but others may not.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#222

Post by philipallstar »

majorchord wrote: post #210
vel0city wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by extending the internet in ways that force users into using their browser engine And yet after multiple times of me asking you've yet to give me a single real feature lost. > This is a different question Its literally the thing we're saying is the problem, how is it a different question entirely?! You're saying the problem is they're adding features that force Chromium, but asking about which features you're talk…

It's not so much forcing people to Chrome/chromium for specific features, but trying to increase market share through more subtle means, like paying to have their search engine featured, advertising their products everywhere possible (including inside other people's apps), slowing down their sites (like youtube) on other browsers, or tying in other services (along with way too much personal info) to try to keep peopl…

> it is a monopoly by extending the internet in ways that force users into using their browser engine

2 messages later that seems to be contradicted?

> It's not so much forcing people to Chrome/chromium for specific features

I might've misread.

> but trying to increase market share through more subtle means, like paying to have their search engine featured

This isn't Chromium, the open source basis of many web browsers. Now you're talking about Google the company.

> Is Linux also a monopoly?

Monopolies in the sense worth discussing are highly popular things that are held in place by things other than competition. If anything, Google props up Chrome's competitors to reduce this.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#223

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

xiaoyu2006 wrote: post #97
Havoc wrote: post #24

Whether it's AMP or manifest 3 or android source shenanigan or attempts to replace cookies with their FLOC nonsense or this...Google is rapidly turning into a malicious force when it comes to the open internet

Turns out RMS has always been right. How surprising.

Turns out that identifying a problem doesn't help without a workable solution/alternative.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#224

Post by dylan604 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #131

I saw this coming from miles away. Computers are better at solving CAPTCHAs than people are and people can be bribed or convinced to join botnets so IP whitelisting doesn't work either. Now we have tons of fingerprinting and behaviour analysis but governments are cracking down on that. Plus, YouTube had a massive ad fraud problem with ads being played back in the background in embedded videos, so their detection clea…

> people can be bribed or convinced to join botnets so IP whitelisting doesn't work either

what does that bribe look like, as in, how much can one get? what all does that entail? is that a little box i connect to my network and forget about? does that mean if i unplug it unless another payment is received that will work out? i'm asking for a friend that's looking to avoid selling plasma to make ends meet.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#225

Post by realusername »

tadzikpk wrote: post #37

[flagged]

> A bot farm cannot bypass for long with a $30 phone.

That's exactly what they are doing already, and it's not 30$/device but something like Betting on device attestation is really betting that smartphones will become less ubiquitous and more expensive to own. Sounds like it's not going to happen to me.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#226

Post by dylan604 »

moritzwarhier wrote: post #190
jeroenhd wrote: post #131

I saw this coming from miles away. Computers are better at solving CAPTCHAs than people are and people can be bribed or convinced to join botnets so IP whitelisting doesn't work either. Now we have tons of fingerprinting and behaviour analysis but governments are cracking down on that. Plus, YouTube had a massive ad fraud problem with ads being played back in the background in embedded videos, so their detection clea…

> saw this coming from miles away. Computers are better at solving CAPTCHAs than people are good point... it's interesting how Captcha was initially popularized as a reverse Turing test, but it's just variants of Proof of Work today. And it seemed clever at the time for Google to leverage this for improvement of their OCR models (it was!), and makes you wonder what utility is derived from the proven "work" today.

With the crosswalk, bike, motorcycle, stairs type of things, wasn't that just improving their training data?

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#227

Post by JoshTriplett »

warkdarrior wrote: post #162
JoshTriplett wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among many other things: Regulate the use of AI to imitate or impersonate human activity. Regulate AI crawling/scraping. Ban scraping entirely, and all models based on it. Regulate maximum model size. These wouldn't eliminate the problem, but they'd change it from "many people do this" to "this is always a malicious attack , react accordingly".

None of these proposals are enforceable in any meaningful way.

Sure they are. They affect the actions of many companies that today think what they're doing is okay (or at least not illegal). Don't underestimate the value of substantially reducing a harm, even if it isn't eliminated entirely. And don't underestimate the value of making it easier to address the remainder by ensuring it's 100% illegitimate.

Regulate it today, and tomorrow, corporate legal departments will be very carefully training their employees to understand that it's illegal and they should never do it.

Currently, some countries have laws saying that you're not allowed to pay bribes, including foreign bribes. Consider how widespread that practice was when it was outlawed. Imagine if, instead of regulating it, those countries had said "oh, that's not enforceable and too many people are already doing it and it would affect existing business practices...". Instead, today, corporate legal departments will ensure that employees are trained to know they can never do that and they should report any attempts to solicit bribes.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#228

Post by vel0city »

majorchord wrote: post #210
vel0city wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by extending the internet in ways that force users into using their browser engine And yet after multiple times of me asking you've yet to give me a single real feature lost. > This is a different question Its literally the thing we're saying is the problem, how is it a different question entirely?! You're saying the problem is they're adding features that force Chromium, but asking about which features you're talk…

It's not so much forcing people to Chrome/chromium for specific features, but trying to increase market share through more subtle means, like paying to have their search engine featured, advertising their products everywhere possible (including inside other people's apps), slowing down their sites (like youtube) on other browsers, or tying in other services (along with way too much personal info) to try to keep peopl…

So now Chrome is a "monopoly" because they're "advertising their products everywhere possible". I guess I can only ever drink Redbull, they're a monopoly, because they're advertising their products everywhere.

Seriously? That's our standard of what is a "monpoply"?

Words have no meaning anymore.

You can choose to use something different. The device you bought probably came with an alternative! Otherwise, the device next to it on the shelf on the store where you bought it likely would have had an alternative browser, because most devices on the store shelves outside of some hypothetical physical Google store don't come with Chrome.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#229

Post by dylan604 »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #223
xiaoyu2006 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out RMS has always been right. How surprising.

Turns out that identifying a problem doesn't help without a workable solution/alternative.

I hate this trite and the managers that say "don't bring me problems, bring me solutions" nonsense. I'm not the person to be able to fix it so the solution is make the problem known so others responsible can fix it. If I could fix it, I wouldn't be telling you about the problem. If anything, I would tell you how I fixed an issue in some stand up or other of the many meetings scheduled keeping me from working.

Re: Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged

#230

Post by hbn »

motbus3 wrote: post #138

I strongly suggest people move away from chrome. They lost all sense of respect. I know it is a small move, but as it happened when chrome started, this opens opportunities for other players

I really tried to switch off Chrome when they broke ad blockers, I gave it a good few months trying out alternatives but I really don't like any of the other browsers. I do primarily use Safari on my Mac, but on Windows where I don't have that option, I don't like any of the big players, and I don't really trust the smaller players. Even the "big" smaller players are not that trustworthy when it comes to security, like Arc browser's "Boosts" feature that enabled remote code execution.

So now I'm back on Chrome.

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