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Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

elciudadano.com

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Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#311

Post by gota »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #236
subw00f wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a naive take. Like the US government espionage is not deeply embedded in even the most basic infrastructure, let alone payment gateways. They probably spend millions on huge data pipelines straight to the fucking pentagon.

Nothing naive about it. Brazil is not the USA. It hasn't exactly demonstrated an ability to "deeply embed" itself into internet backbones the way the USA does. The problem with Pix is: they don't need to. Lack of capabilities limit the scope of government tyranny. It used to be that the government didn't have the manpower required to audit everyone and everything, so only the bank transactions above some threshold wo…

>With pix, they are monitoring 100% of transactions now.

First, I don't think they are.

Second, good - they should have an _algorithm_ checking every transaction. MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me; the government could catch all the money laundering that is the lifeblood of crime, or maybe just finally eradicate tax evasion, the necessary first step towards rationalizing our tax code and one of the core issues of our country?

Your opinions read like you have misplaced worries, if not values.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#312

Post by brabel »

embedding-shape wrote: post #201
throwaw12 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is already moving towards having own payment system with Wero

Most European countries I frequent already have their own local equivalent to Pix. In Spain almost everyone has Bizum, and not uncommon for vendors at markets to accept it too, Sweden has Swish which is the same deal for the Swedes. I think this lists the most prominent ones that are in wide usage today already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Mobile_Payment_System... Apparently, some of these already have int…

Would be amazing for me to use Swish to pay for things in Brazil as if I had Pix! Could that work somehow?

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#313

Post by gota »

reese_john wrote: post #250
Xunjin wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context is important, the Brazil's President said that about USA investigations with allegations that Pix is a "unfair business practices"[0] he is not at all saying that Pix is "100% powered by Brazil", in his political proselytism he does make clear that Brazil and USA are partners by centuries and should keep being. 0. https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/articles/cm2vrnq17vdo

Please, he literally went on national TV on Brazil’s Independence day to claim that “We will defend PIX from any attempt at privatization. PIX belongs to Brazil, it's public, free, and will remain so.” Lula has been historically hostile to the US for ideological reasons. He’s done plenty to undermine that relation, stemming from attacking the dollar dominance, ignoring Iran sanctions, to indirectly financing the Ukra…

> Lula has been historically hostile to the US for ideological reasons.

Care to elaborate and give examples?

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#314

Post by brabel »

jmyeet wrote: post #238
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

> I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. Oh they absolutely will. And the US government will come to their aid. Consider the case of Bombardier [1], a Canadian airplane manufacturer. Boeing was caught with its pants down by Airbus with the A320/321 and panicked into making the 737MAX. Boe…

Lovely how China is now beating the Americans in their own game. And the reaction is predictable: accuse the Chinese of being a threat to National Security and stop them from taking over the American market after they have already taken most of the rest of the world. Eventually, Americans will be the ones paying the price for the overly protectionist policies of their government.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#315

Post by brabel »

whatevaa wrote: post #288
fn-mote wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, the number of people that care about no-phone functionality is tiny. I bet the greatest preference is the other way: the ability to use it without a physical card. Everyone has a phone. Of course you need a backup at some point, but it’s just that: a backup.

Android and IOS are controlled by US companies. And both google and apple can ban you for no reason.

Touché! Freeing oneself from America is nearly impossible. Unless you’re China, probably.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#316

Post by gaigalas »

reese_john wrote: post #310
gaigalas wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an offshoot topic which is, in my opinion, irrelevant for the sovereignty discussion. I'm here just to clear out the confusion regarding the infrastructural pieces. The core PIX is undeniably sovereign and state-owned, and the Amazon downtime was lack of resilience on the part of the banks (which they could have totally designed around but decided not to).

> I'm here just to clear out the confusion regarding the infrastructural pieces. The core PIX is undeniably sovereign and state-owned Sure, I can see the confusion, I should have made that clearer. Let me rephrase it: the "core PIX" is mostly an implementation of ISO20022 (pain,pacs, etc) messaging on top of HTTP APIs and BCB's own ledgers, plus a centralized KV datastore (Dict). The implementation was excellent, but…

There is a wide misconception that state stuff needs to be fully state-developed. I don't subscribe to that view. Delegating and designing just-enough simple solutions, avoiding bureaucratic tanglements, is an immense challenge and done beautifully in this case.

The other direction (not using standards, owning parts you don't need) would make it for slower adoption, lots of new government responsibilities and very few additional sovereign control. It would be worse.

Building a "technical moat" is for companies which have direct competition. The state can solve this by making regulations. It doesn't need that technical moat, simplicity is better suited. It's acting exactly at the intersection it needs: in the regulation, delegation and coordination realm, not execution.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#317

Post by gota »

pelasaco wrote: post #132

The only problem I actually face with Pix in Brazil is: Some stores only accept Pix and don’t want Visa or cash. As a tourist, you end up unable to access a lot of things because, well, we don’t have Pix. While I was in Brazil, some thugs with pistols came into a bar where I was. They forced people to send a Pix payment to a specific account, and their money was gone. In the credit card era, I guess the companies, in…

> While I was in Brazil, some thugs with pistols came into a bar where I was. They forced people to send a Pix payment to a specific account, and their money was gone.

Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your story doesn't track for many reasons. First, PIX keys are associated to formal bank accounts. If what you described happend, that account was blocked by the bank likely within the hour after the 'robbery'. And "stealing" accounts from other people in a way that allows you to withdraw cash from is exceedingly difficult and uncommon.

Furthermore, it might have been possible in early days of pix, but it's been some time now (maybe from the start? Making your story impossible) that Pix has a 'undo' feature that the sender can do on their bank app or ATM even; similar to the 'block this credit transaction' from a credit card.

> With Pix, as I understand it, nobody feels responsible for it and the money is gone.

Incorrect, see above. Are you confusing PIX for some kind of crypto transfer?

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#318

Post by Pooge »

hocuspocus wrote: post #259
Pooge wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't have said it better. I don't understand what they solve. We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. Switzerland is not part of SEPA but IBAN is used so it is trivial to send payments to foreign accounts that have an IBAN. I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards.

> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere > Switzerland is not part of SEPA We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). > I don't understand what they solve. [...] > I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/M…

> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere

That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN".

> We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works).

Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it.

> You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#319

Post by reese_john »

gaigalas wrote: post #316
reese_john wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm here just to clear out the confusion regarding the infrastructural pieces. The core PIX is undeniably sovereign and state-owned Sure, I can see the confusion, I should have made that clearer. Let me rephrase it: the "core PIX" is mostly an implementation of ISO20022 (pain,pacs, etc) messaging on top of HTTP APIs and BCB's own ledgers, plus a centralized KV datastore (Dict). The implementation was excellent, but…

There is a wide misconception that state stuff needs to be fully state-developed. I don't subscribe to that view. Delegating and designing just-enough simple solutions, avoiding bureaucratic tanglements, is an immense challenge and done beautifully in this case. The other direction (not using standards, owning parts you don't need) would make it for slower adoption, lots of new government responsibilities and very fe…

Yes, but my point was more nuanced, I didn't mean to say that the state needs a fully owned solution.

The original article opens up with "Pix is igniting a geopolitical and commercial battle."

The point I was trying to make, specially in the last paragraph, was that: Brazil doesn't really have full control, or the capability, to operate Pix without US infrastructure. Therefore, it is not smart, to engage in a geopolitical, ideological battle against the US. If Brazil wants to tough it out and claim sovereignty, then it must be willing to walk away and build its own infra.

Case in point: the recent US-Canada tensions were enough for the Canadian government to consider cancelling the purchase of American-made F-35 fighter jets.

Is the Brazilian government willing to do the same? Is it even in its best interest to do so? In my opinion, no, hence the aggressive anti-US rethoric from Lula must stop

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#320

Post by bpavuk »

znnajdla wrote: post #145
bpavuk wrote: post #124

a question for Ukrainians who maybe rode to Brazil and got to try Pix: is it this fast? is monobank faster or slower than Pix?

They're not really comparable because Pix is interbank while monobank in Ukraine is a single bank.

I know, but with almost every third Ukrainian above 14 having a mono card we can at least compare the UX (speed, steps required, ease of use, etc.)
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