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PC Engine CPU

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Re: PC Engine CPU

#21

Post by tombert »

xoxxala wrote: post #16
tombert wrote: post #13

I didn't grow up with the PC Engine or TurboGrafx, but I did start getting into it after I got the MiSTer. I find that the unsuccessful [1] consoles are generally pretty bad. The 3DO and the Jaguar and CD-i are mostly pretty crappy, and while it can be fun to play for a novelty and you might even find one or two games that make it worth it, the vast majority of the time there's a reason that people don't seriously re…

The Jaguar catalog was mostly meh, but there were a few gems that I really enjoyed (Aliens vs Predator, Doom, Wolf 3d, Iron Soldier, and Tempest 2000). AvP alone was worth the price of the system. I was a proud Turbo DUO owner. It had some fantastic multiplayer games, especially 5-player Bomberman. That got a lot of play, including tournaments at work. Dungeon Explorer is another one we played through multiple times.

I have to push back on that a bit.

I played through the campaign for Alien vs Predator for both the Space Marine and the Alien campaigns in BigPEmu, and I really think it's a mediocre-at-best Wolf 3D clone. If it had been released on anything besides the Jag, then I think it would be, at best, relegated to the annals of mediocrity like the dozens of other Wolfenstein 3D knock offs. I wanted to like it because I love the first two Alien movies, but I really do not think it holds up compared to most FPS games, even at the time.

I haven't fully gone through the Turbo CD catalog yet, but I did play through It Came From Outer space and that was a blast in a "so bad it's good" kind of way.

Re: PC Engine CPU

#22

Post by jeremyevans »

zulux wrote: post #18
softfalcon wrote: post #10

Still own multiple TG-16’s. The CD-ROM attachment plus Ys: Book I & II was a modern technical marvel at the time. Hearing full hi-fi stereo anime rock and roll instead of chip tunes blew my mind back in the day.

Many TG CD-Games had their code in track one, and the other tracks were just redbook audio. So you pop the CD into a regular player, skip the first one or two tracks so your speakers don't blow out with static, and then enjoy the game soundtrack.

Actually, I think most had the code in track 2. Track 1 was an audio track warning you that the disc is only designed to a play on the system. More details at https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/27518/did...

Re: PC Engine CPU

#23

Post by bartread »

tombert wrote: post #13

I didn't grow up with the PC Engine or TurboGrafx, but I did start getting into it after I got the MiSTer. I find that the unsuccessful [1] consoles are generally pretty bad. The 3DO and the Jaguar and CD-i are mostly pretty crappy, and while it can be fun to play for a novelty and you might even find one or two games that make it worth it, the vast majority of the time there's a reason that people don't seriously re…

I always thought the 3DO was good hardware, for 1993, let down by a high price (especially by 1993 standards) and a poor library of games: there just wasn’t a good incentive to buy the thing.

Fast forward a couple of years and the PlayStation and Saturn are both out, more technically capable, cheaper, and with better game libraries.

However, I really do think the main thing that killed the 3DO was the price - it was wildly and ridiculously expensive compared with the alternatives - and the lack of games sort of followed naturally from that because who’s going to develop for a console hardly anyone bought?

The inter-generation timing of its launch probably didn’t help. Who’s forking over when you know Sega, Nintendo and - it turns out - Sony are all going to release something better in a year or two?

Re: PC Engine CPU

#24

Post by garciansmith »

tombert wrote: post #13

I didn't grow up with the PC Engine or TurboGrafx, but I did start getting into it after I got the MiSTer. I find that the unsuccessful [1] consoles are generally pretty bad. The 3DO and the Jaguar and CD-i are mostly pretty crappy, and while it can be fun to play for a novelty and you might even find one or two games that make it worth it, the vast majority of the time there's a reason that people don't seriously re…

I wouldn't call the PC Engine unsuccessful. Sure it did poorly in the US, but it did well in Japan, even outsold the Mega Drive (Genesis). That's definitely part of the reason it had quite a few good games by Japanese companies.

Re: PC Engine CPU

#25

Post by LocalH »

mikepurvis wrote: post #20
dfxm12 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NEC made some great looking consoles, in Japan. The PC Engine, the PC Engine Shuttle, the IFU-30 unit "briefcase", and the SuperGrafx. I think console design peaked with the SuperGrafx. In the back of my mind, I have the idea that US regulations required extra shielding that the Japanese model lacked. Maybe this isn't the case. Maybe some American marketer decided it was just too cute or too small.

I think the redesign of the NES shell for the North American market was largely for vanity reasons, wasn't it? Entertainment system instead of computer, grey plastic instead of beige, front loading instead of top, long cartridges that were supposed to look like VCR tapes instead of toys.

N also took the opportunity to remove the lockout chip, since the system came out so late in the lifecycle and they were largely successful at stamping out unlicensed releases.

The Japanese version of that redesign also got compatibility with existing SNES Multi-AV cables (at least the composite ones, the AV Famicom didn't output s-video) while the US version was RF-only (and AFAIK is worse for jailbars than any previous NES)

Re: PC Engine CPU

#26

Post by LocalH »

wk_end wrote: post #12
softfalcon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who owns a SNES and a TG-16, I think I disagree. The TG-16 graphics really pop compared to the SNES. The SNES can only render 256 simultaneous colours. The TG-16 could do twice that at 512. Its video processor was also full 16-bit. I’m not sure where you’re getting that the video was the weakness of the TG-16. At the time, that was the Turbografx’s whole claim to fame in that it was superior graphically to…

The PC Engine could theoretically do more colours on screen (though things like colour math and mid-screen palette changes do complicate that a bit...), but only had 9-bit wide palette entries compared to the SFC's 15-bit colour depth, which allowed for a lot more subtlety and richness.

That's the biggest Achilles' heel of the Genesis/MD, too. The lack of color resolution. I helped make the palette more accurate for that MD port of Super Mario Bros, and I made two palettes - one to simulate the composite PPU palette, and one to simulate the RGB PPU palette. The composite palette was closer, and what Mairtrus ended up shipping with (the RGB palette, no matter which "side" of mid-values I chose, wasn't quite right due to the lack of color bits)

Re: PC Engine CPU

#27

Post by ushimitsudoki »

ndiddy wrote: post #4

The PC Engine's CPU is probably its strongest aspect, Hudson did a great job here. Going with a really fast 8-bit CPU makes much more sense than Nintendo's choice of going with a slow 16-bit CPU, especially when the screen is 256 pixels wide so most of the calculations a game would be doing are only 8 bits anyway. Even when you have to do 16-bit calculations, the SNES CPU still has an 8-bit data bus so it doesn't hav…

I always assumed NEC designed this CPU, but it turns out Hudson Soft really did create it.

Hudson was apparently a legendary company. If you look at their Japanese Wikipedia page, it’s filled with "heroic tales" that almost sound like jokes.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B8%...

The CPU was conceived by Hudson engineers who, despite their success in the NES business, felt they had hit the hardware's limits. Interestingly, they initially had no business plan. They were simply "chasing a dream" and supposedly had "no real intention of selling it," which led most semiconductor manufacturers to reject their pitch.

They managed to scrape together a few thousand samples, and by pure chance, NEC—a dominant PC manufacturer in Japan at the time—was looking to enter the console market. This lucky alignment of interests is what gave birth to the PC Engine.

While this story sounds reckless, it was only possible because Japan was in the midst of the real estate bubble, and capital was overflowing.

Once the bubble burst in the 90s, Japan entered a long recession. After a few major bank failures, Hudson’s funding dried up. They were eventually absorbed by Konami, and today, even the Hudson name is gone. It’s a real shame.

Re: PC Engine CPU

#30

Post by tombert »

bartread wrote: post #23
tombert wrote: post #13

I didn't grow up with the PC Engine or TurboGrafx, but I did start getting into it after I got the MiSTer. I find that the unsuccessful [1] consoles are generally pretty bad. The 3DO and the Jaguar and CD-i are mostly pretty crappy, and while it can be fun to play for a novelty and you might even find one or two games that make it worth it, the vast majority of the time there's a reason that people don't seriously re…

I always thought the 3DO was good hardware, for 1993, let down by a high price (especially by 1993 standards) and a poor library of games: there just wasn’t a good incentive to buy the thing. Fast forward a couple of years and the PlayStation and Saturn are both out, more technically capable, cheaper, and with better game libraries. However, I really do think the main thing that killed the 3DO was the price - it was…

I agree; if the console had been half the price it might have faired better.

Another issue is that pretty much every good game on there came out on other platforms, and often the other platform's version was actually better anyway. Return Fire, for example: great game, a lot of fun, but the PlayStation version is better in pretty much every way. Same with Road Rash, or The Horde (in a cheesy way, on the Saturn), Alone in the Dark (on the PC), etc. Despite being called the 3DO, it pretty much always had the absolute worst version of 3D games.

There are a few exclusives, and even a couple that are ok, but certainly not enough to justify the price tag. Even compared to the Saturn (a system that also tends to have pretty mediocre 3D experiences), it's pretty obvious that the 3DO is a bad deal.

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