Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#301

Post by amarant » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:12 PM UTC

throwaway473825 wrote: post #110

amarant wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like pix is very similar to the Swedish swish. Phone numbers are used for identity, payments are instant, businesses often have qr codes with their identity etc.. It's like WhatsApp but with money!

The Swish system is private, which means that the fees are as high as the market can bear. In many cases cards are cheaper. If the e-krona happens, that would be a better comparison.

Free for individuals, and costs 3 euro per month for companies +0.1 euro per transaction (only for companies)

What cards are you taking about that are cheaper than that?

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#302

Post by registeredcorn » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:25 PM UTC

bilekas wrote: post #203

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

> Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better. There is no problem to continue using maybe Visa/Mastercard when dealing abroad or external, but when you are a normal citizen, it's far better to use Pix in this case, you are supporting a national company, paying fee's to them and not at the whims of an external countries policies. Edit: They also tend to be non profits ironically enough. In Ireland…

> in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market

Do you happen to have any insight on this? I mean, how is it that one or two companies can manage to squeeze everyone else out so completely? If two big players control Point of Sales (POS), shouldn't someone be able to come in and make a business out of underselling the competition? I would think that smaller overhead means smaller margins are needed.

I've talked to small businesses about fees and charges for their POS and they are always thrilled when people pay with cash, because it means they get the full amount. (These conversations have come up because I've run small businesses in the past, and I remember how horrible it felt to "sell" something for $30, only to get like...$5 out of it between fees, taxes, and insurance costs. It seems like every business I've spoken to hates Visa and MasterCard with a passion, so I would think that small business would be thrilled to have a new player.

At a guess, I would think that part of(?) the reason may be due to (and rightfully so) whatever regulations are in place to force money transfer companies into meeting certain security ratings or whatever. Even so, surely there are people that are willing to fight for a piece of the action, right? It seems crazy to me that no one else sees that as an opportunity to do it better. I'd really like it if fees for small-to-medium businesses could be dropped entirely, and it was only the major players that offset the costs for everyone else.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#303

Post by pimeys » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:27 PM UTC

Pooge wrote: post #227

pimeys wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have free instant SEPA transfers. What Wero solves is that you can send money without giving your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account. So you get standardized payment system where you scan a QR code or NFC tag with your bank app and the payment goes through IBAN and the system shows an approval of payment. It still uses the same systems under the surface.

> your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account What the f#*k?!

It's called SEPA direct debit. For some reason people don't want to use their web bank to pay for things, so what you usually do is you do a SEPA direct debit contract and the company takes the money from your account every month.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#304

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:27 PM UTC

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

I actually see it as quite worrysome. This would crowd out competition, but then gives full monopoly of payments to the local government.

If you are say a political outcast, there's a single point of failure in getting debanked. Not good.

I do like processing fees down, but definitely not at the cost of creating a single point of failure with power over the entire population.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#305

Post by Schiendelman » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:30 PM UTC

rpgbr wrote: post #296

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

Pix isn't intended (yet) for foreigners to use. It's mostly for local Brazilians, and here it's brilliant: free for personal use, really fast (frequently instantaneous, has a 10 second limit), and accessible (every major bank and most of the smaller ones supports it). I can understand why Visa and Mastercard are worried. Apple is as well, since it refuses to support Pix in Apple Pay, which is mandatory in Brazil. But…

Have they said "we refuse" or could it be that they have other priorities that come first?

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#306

Post by pimeys » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:32 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #179

throwaway473825 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Card fees aren't paid by end customers either. The Swedish iDEAL equivalent, Swish, is more expensive than cards for smaller transactions (below 15 euros). Wero will be like Swish, not Pix.

Wero is not something that "will be", Wero already is. It used to be called something else for decades, but that doesn't change much.

Yep. The new thing is that you can pay your groceries with it in the supermarket early next year.

What I was reading, you're supposed to be able to send money to people with it this summer, pay in internet shops late this year and supermarkets and restaurants will follow in 2027.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#307

Post by kwanbix » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:37 PM UTC

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

VISA an MasterCard have Credit Cards. Pix is just a way to transfer money you have in your bank account. In europe we can do that with IBAN. It goes from one account to another. In Argentina we have something similar in all banks. What is unike from VISA and MasteCard, at least untill now, is the Credit part of it.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#308

Post by schubidubiduba » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:50 PM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #304

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #152

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID…

I actually see it as quite worrysome. This would crowd out competition, but then gives full monopoly of payments to the local government. If you are say a political outcast, there's a single point of failure in getting debanked. Not good. I do like processing fees down, but definitely not at the cost of creating a single point of failure with power over the entire population.

Visa and Mastercard already are a single point of failure (see e.g. the French judge that cannot use it anymore because the US government did not like it when he did his job). This way, there'll be at least two points of failure.

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#309

Post by gota » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:56 PM UTC

DanielHB wrote: post #289

dbolgheroni wrote: post #15

People underestimate how difficult it was to transfer money before Pix, even between local banks. The process was hard to use, it could take days and the fees were huge, depending on your bank. Pix solved all these problems. What happens also is that many sellers provide discounts when using Pix, because you dodge the expensive fees charged not only by Visa and MasterCard, but the fees operators (banks, fintechs) cha…

When I tell that I used to withdraw cash at the ATM in one bank, cross the street, deposit the CASH in another bank ATM people think I am crazy. But I was doing monthly that circa 2014, all to avoid paying ~3 USD transfer fee (what was called a DOC/TED). In Brazil your employer kinda chooses which bank they use and you kinda have to open a bank account with them to get paid, but it is hardly worth it to move your cre…

Sorry that you wasted time but - it was wasted time!

"Salary portability" is ensured in Brazil by the Banco Centra, at least since 2006. Employees can receive salary in any bank account they choose, even if their employer processes payroll through a different bank.

The original bank must automatically transfer the funds to the employee’s choice of account without charging a transfer fee: https://www.bcb.gov.br/meubc/faqs/p/existe-algum-custo-para-...

Re: Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard

#310

Post by reese_john » Fri, May 08, 2026, 5:58 PM UTC

gaigalas wrote: post #286

reese_john wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banco Central controls the core, and that's all it needs to. This is good design. Descentralized, modern, resilient and efficient. I agree. But was that not the case before Pix/SPI? It really didn’t change the status quo. The STR (transfer reserve system), which SPI is still fully dependent in practice btw, is decentralized, modern and efficient. The biggest change here was scale and adoption by private banks and e…

That is an offshoot topic which is, in my opinion, irrelevant for the sovereignty discussion. I'm here just to clear out the confusion regarding the infrastructural pieces. The core PIX is undeniably sovereign and state-owned, and the Amazon downtime was lack of resilience on the part of the banks (which they could have totally designed around but decided not to).

> I'm here just to clear out the confusion regarding the infrastructural pieces. The core PIX is undeniably sovereign and state-owned

Sure, I can see the confusion, I should have made that clearer.

Let me rephrase it: the "core PIX" is mostly an implementation of ISO20022 (pain,pacs, etc) messaging on top of HTTP APIs and BCB's own ledgers, plus a centralized KV datastore (Dict).

The implementation was excellent, but there is no technical moat in the "state-owned" part of the solution

The biggest technical challenges were, by design, delegated to the private sector, heavily relying on US hyperscalers to achieve Pix's operational requirements.