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Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

341–350 of 713 posts

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#341

The only effective punishment/threat that I saw work on my bullies at school was the threat to remove one of them from the football team and prevent him from playing for the school. He turned it around and was ok after that. It was highly effective because it was a bigger punishment than those used for not doing your homework, and because it was highly relevant to him specifically. It worked because we had 16 student…

this can only be effective if the school isn't counting on the bully to help the school win various sports competitions over the next few years.

often the school is in a tough spot because the only reason some jocks are there is for their sport ability, that the school needs.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the generic policies can be very strange, too. I once got detention for getting punched in the arm. I was much taller than any of the school bullies, so they mostly didn't start anything with me. But every now and then, they would try. The punch barely hurt and I didn't really care, but another student saw it and reported it. The staff knew what happened, understood that I was the only one that got hit, and t…

That’s “zero tolerance” hard at work. Wouldn't want a kid who is being bullied to think about retaliating. Also, because the bully can time the bullying, the initial event is often missed, but the victim is caught retaliating. It sounds fair on paper, but punishing everybody involved does not work.

> It sounds fair on paper

To who!? It doesn't sound fair at all. It sounds like an "authority" being embarrassed their precious system wasn't able to catch the perceived issue. "I can't see everything so, until I can (ominous foreshadowing camera angle), every suspect is guilty."

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#343
post #78

I see at least 2 issues with the physical punishment: - it will only make the bullies taking their revenge on vulnerable ones with even more cruelty. And they will plan it carefully to be hard/impossible to prove. It will lead to the escalation, not to the resolution - the power will be abused, it's inevitable. I would be so scared to be in a class where "teacher" has the power to harm me physically! (to clarify: I a…

> Applying violence to kids is not the way to make them stop applying violence to others.

When I was young me and two of my brothers were one-day really misbehaving. My grand-father, who had been capture on the first day of WWII (well on the first day Germany invaded Belgium) and spent 5 years in a PoW prisoner camp in Germany, wasn't a little wuss.

He spanked our three arses so bad I remember it to this day.

It was an amazing lesson.

Something has to be said about peaceful time that create weak men who then find all the excuses towards abusers. The issue with the "well-thinking" mindset is that when pushed to its logical end, rapists are walking totally free after having been caught (UK) and people can break a female police officer' nose at the London Heathrow airport and walk totally free too. With weak judges from a weak society ruling that: "In their culture/countries men don't know that you're not supposed to rape women".

We then end up with people, in the west, who genitally mutilate women and non-sense like that.

When, on the contrary, you decide to take the psychopaths who ruin society for everyone by the scruff of the neck and put them in chain, you get the homicide rate slashed, in ten years by 100.

That's not being decimated: that's being decimated and then being decimated, again.

1/100th.

> So what is the possible solution then? Protect those who are vulnerable

That's typical victimization, which create more weak men. Weak men who then, for example, become politicians who vote ultra-lax laws and weak judges who then let rapists walk free, making the streets unsafe.

If bullies getting spanked by an authority figure don't get the lesson, it's their problem. Not society's problem. Society, as a whole, is supposed to have the monopoly of violence. Instead of that in many countries (like France and the UK), the government gives up and gives the monopoly of violence to drug dealers and rapists. Drug dealers and rapists who learned, since a young age, that were exactly zero repercussion when being a bully.

You've got your opinion, I got mine: putting gang members in chains in El Salvador slashed the homicide rate by 100x. Ponder that.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s “zero tolerance” hard at work. Wouldn't want a kid who is being bullied to think about retaliating. Also, because the bully can time the bullying, the initial event is often missed, but the victim is caught retaliating. It sounds fair on paper, but punishing everybody involved does not work.

I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic about it discouraging retaliating. When they had us both in the room, I said to the staff, "If you're just going to give me detention anyway, then the next time he punches me, I'm punching him back." Needless to say, they didn't like that. But I think it kept the peace. At the time, it seemed like the only logical move. Otherwise, the bully would just have another reason t…

> can't tell whether you are being sarcastic about it discouraging retaliating

I'm 100% for the retaliation. If I'm going to get kicked out for fighting, I'm not going to do it without hitting the other guy.

One time I was almost kicked out for a "serious fight" I never threw a punch in. Was a friend who was having a rough time and I knew I just needed to give him a minute. Arm up to keep some space, stepping back. Caught and detained for it. Couldn't figure out what else I was supposed to do. Didn't matter because I was involved.

> bully would just have another reason to do it, to get me in trouble without any additional consequences

This is exactly how it plays out other times.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s “zero tolerance” hard at work. Wouldn't want a kid who is being bullied to think about retaliating. Also, because the bully can time the bullying, the initial event is often missed, but the victim is caught retaliating. It sounds fair on paper, but punishing everybody involved does not work.

Zero tolerance can lead to a new type of bullying: state sponsored. I remember a younger colleague who talked about her school experience, this was just at the start of zero tolerance because there was a belief that bullying caused school gun violence. Bullies quickly found out it was easy to just report "weird" kids as potential shooters and let the school torment them with investigations.

You can also use the school staff to help you bully other kids.

Play the victim, they can't allow that, now the other kid is in trouble for nothing.

Start a fight knowing you'll both get into trouble, laugh at the other kid who is in trouble because of your choices.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the generic policies can be very strange, too. I once got detention for getting punched in the arm. I was much taller than any of the school bullies, so they mostly didn't start anything with me. But every now and then, they would try. The punch barely hurt and I didn't really care, but another student saw it and reported it. The staff knew what happened, understood that I was the only one that got hit, and t…

If your parents didn't make a serious stink about this, they failed you. As it is, I guess you learned a valuable lesson about what sort of person seeks the profound authority granted to school administration.

Your 1st sentence is spot on.

Your 2nd one is kind of nonsensical.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#347

I don't agree with the notion of caning children, but... Why only males are eligible to be caned? That doesn't sound fair within the framework, girls can be bullies too.

> Why only males are eligible to be caned?

Because Singapore outlaw caning women, the schools cannot cane girls without changing other laws but they can cane boys.

The article says this, if it was legal to cane the girls they would also do that but they can't.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullies need to be identified as simply immature, treated as children that have not graduated to their age. That really impacts the individual. Make them wear identifying clothing as a "special case" and they will mature very fast.

As someone who was once a child and witnessed other kids getting bullied, bullies loved getting singled out. They thrived on attention. There are kids who'd punch another kid if it meant they'd get an ugly shirt that everyone would recognize and mark them as "bad"

Right?

There are lots of reasons this stuff happens, but one of them is definitely that some kids aren't acting out for school reasons but for attention from their parents.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#349
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s “zero tolerance” hard at work. Wouldn't want a kid who is being bullied to think about retaliating. Also, because the bully can time the bullying, the initial event is often missed, but the victim is caught retaliating. It sounds fair on paper, but punishing everybody involved does not work.

> It sounds fair on paper To who!? It doesn't sound fair at all. It sounds like an "authority" being embarrassed their precious system wasn't able to catch the perceived issue. "I can't see everything so, until I can (ominous foreshadowing camera angle), every suspect is guilty."

It isn't sold like this though, hence it working differently on paper and in practice.

There is no tolerance for violence. The kid is involved in a violent situation, and the kid is punished for it. That is a fairly logical set of steps until you realize how vague "involved" is.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two problems: 1) school education is mandatory until 16-18 in most countries, so what do you do with them once they get expelled. They have to be in education somewhere - so do you just put them in one school for all the expelled students, which is just constantly on fire? You made the problem much worse for yourself(as in - the state). 2) " there’s no benefit to keeping them in school and massive consequences for th…

Some dysfunctional kids are there because of trauma, others because of opportunism and poor impulse control they'll eventually grow out of, and some are fundamentally defective and no amount of support will make them less destructive or dangerous to themselves and others. Psychopathy and narcissism are psychological/emotional disabilities. They're the emotional equivalent of being born without a limb - or in congenit…

> They're the emotional equivalent of being born without a limb

For start we could stop cutting part of their limbs shortly after birth. Doing this to dogs is considered too cruel and banned, but somehow it is ok for little boys?

> some are fundamentally defective and no amount of support

No need for support, just stop harming them!

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