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Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

storica.club

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Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#61

Post by dashdashu »

arjie wrote: post #15

When I was a child in India, the fairy tale books that you could get easily were a bunch of Eastern European ones: Russian, Karelian, that sort of thing. And they were full of crazy stuff, man. The cossacks were constantly getting their heads cut off and this and that. I went back to India a year ago, and one of the things I made sure to bring back were my copies of those books (and the Journey to the West translatio…

I think I remember that the original brother grimm stories were also much more violent, and dont forget german classics like the Struwwelpeter, gave me nightmares as a kid - especially the guy with the huge scissors cutting off the thumbs of a kid who sucked on them too much. Its in public domain if anyone is curious: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24571

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#63

Post by redsocksfan45 »

jimbob45 wrote: post #47
arjie wrote: post #15

When I was a child in India, the fairy tale books that you could get easily were a bunch of Eastern European ones: Russian, Karelian, that sort of thing. And they were full of crazy stuff, man. The cossacks were constantly getting their heads cut off and this and that. I went back to India a year ago, and one of the things I made sure to bring back were my copies of those books (and the Journey to the West translatio…

There’s just no reason to traumatize kids that early. It’s perfectly fine to be a happy Disney kid until 10 and then find the trauma gradually. It’s not like Bridge to Terabithia didn’t exist for the previous generation either.

[dead]

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#64

Post by moravak1984 »

fractallyte wrote: post #41
moravak1984 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Claude (cleverly disguised as "storica.club") does not agree with the facts, and would rather show you a story with virality potential. This is an obviously AI-generated site. There is no interest on correctness, just "engagement".

What are the Claude "indications"? Because there's a danger now that any writing (human or otherwise) can be labeled LLM-produced. So we need accurate heuristics, or none at all.

The copy on the main page gives a first clue. "A daily reading club for language learners" available on 7 languages, on a .club domain...

Now, look at the number of books on each language. Does it sound reasonable that a no-name startup with no contact details (except an email to an aktivlang.com domain that redirects to storica.club) will invest in a serious effort to human-translate and adapt that many books to language learners, without anyone noticing?

I'm not going to argue about the writing style because we know it is an arms race. But look at the underlying business, that business would not exist without AI generated content.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#65

Post by sunrunner »

dashdashu wrote: post #61
arjie wrote: post #15

When I was a child in India, the fairy tale books that you could get easily were a bunch of Eastern European ones: Russian, Karelian, that sort of thing. And they were full of crazy stuff, man. The cossacks were constantly getting their heads cut off and this and that. I went back to India a year ago, and one of the things I made sure to bring back were my copies of those books (and the Journey to the West translatio…

I think I remember that the original brother grimm stories were also much more violent, and dont forget german classics like the Struwwelpeter, gave me nightmares as a kid - especially the guy with the huge scissors cutting off the thumbs of a kid who sucked on them too much. Its in public domain if anyone is curious: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24571

Great timing, I was having trouble not getting to sleep and this looks like it will help.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#66

Post by pawelduda »

geophph wrote: post #20

Lies of P is a fantastic video game (soulslike) that felt to me like a dark take on the Pinocchio story at first, but now maybe seems more in line with the original material. A lot of the references carry through.

The game's way darker still but it doesn't feel overdone. You can tell a lot of soul was poured into it. Nice to know that it all somehow traces back to its source

I remember hearing about "Pinnocchio soulslike" and just couldn't imagine how that'd work. Now it's one of my favourites - especially with the expansion.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#67

Post by michaelscott »

arjie wrote: post #15

When I was a child in India, the fairy tale books that you could get easily were a bunch of Eastern European ones: Russian, Karelian, that sort of thing. And they were full of crazy stuff, man. The cossacks were constantly getting their heads cut off and this and that. I went back to India a year ago, and one of the things I made sure to bring back were my copies of those books (and the Journey to the West translatio…

I had a partner who was a teacher in very rough areas; the school principal was routinely called by the local gang leader to let school out early because rival gangs planned to have a shootout in the afternoon. Kids there were abused in more ways than I want to remember or recount, babies were sometimes found in dumpsters, and the whole thing had this constantly oppressive and hopeless atmosphere.

My partner did her best to help the kids in her class, and part of this included reading them stories so they at least got a glimpse of the world outside of what in my opinion was hell on earth. The stories the kids always loved most were the Grimms, the violent ones. I think they allowed them to process and in some weird way make sense of what was happening in the real world around them, if such a thing is possible in that environment. I agree, I think the environment most kids grow up in today necessitates a "sanitizing" of story content in order to make it relevant.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#68

Post by gobdovan »

junto wrote: post #31

I’ve never seen the Disney film. As a child I hated that story. My own children have no love for it either. If I was to guess, I’d say that there isn’t much of a character in that story to get behind and to empathize with as a child. Pinocchio is a selfish little shit. I can’t like him. As an adult I feel for his father’s desperation but even then I could never understand the story’s popularity appeal.

I love exactly what you hate about it. I would not read it to a small child, but I would dearly recommend it to a 10- to 15-year-old. I reread it as an adult and loved it.

Pinocchio is mean, undisciplined, hedonistic, disrespectful, naive, and, of course, a liar. As soon as he is created, he runs away and behaves selfishly and impulsively.

Then he pays for each flaw with scars. The story shows him learning these lessons on his own wooden skin.

It is a moral story in the deepest sense. It shows what feels to me almost like "forbidden" knowledge. There is no magical thinking in it; it is not trying to preach "Doing bad things is bad, full stop". Instead, the author shows realistic consequences and the full messiness of being in the world. It shows exactly how naivety can result in exploitation (the Fox and the Cat stealing from him after promising him easy riches), laziness in humiliation (skipping school and ending up forced to perform for strangers; he loses his agency and is released only by Mangiafuoco's arbitrary mercy), vanity in manipulation (he is steered by praise, attention, and promises of fame), dishonesty in isolation (his lies literally disfiguring him in front of others, making him ridiculous and impossible to hide), and hedonism in literal dehumanization (Pleasure Island turning boys into donkeys).

It is quite rare for a children's book to be so honest about all the vile things in the world, and to show so directly that these things exist and that their consequences are not clean or neat either.

It also shows how we learn as humans. We do not start out good or bad and stay that way; we are not born "finished". We start as little monsters, full of impulses and feelings we cannot control or do not yet know how to interpret. Yet we learn by acting on them and seeing where they lead us. We are messy creatures, and Pinocchio makes it visible. I believe reading it made me a more robust person with a more sophisticated view of the world.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#69

Post by gobdovan »

byteface wrote: post #58
junto wrote: post #31

I’ve never seen the Disney film. As a child I hated that story. My own children have no love for it either. If I was to guess, I’d say that there isn’t much of a character in that story to get behind and to empathize with as a child. Pinocchio is a selfish little shit. I can’t like him. As an adult I feel for his father’s desperation but even then I could never understand the story’s popularity appeal.

He's is selfish. Also cruel but funny, very gullible, often impulslive... alive. He was ported to Russian too but they called him Burattino (Italian for 'puppet'). The image of burratino goes back hundreds of years before the story was ever written. He was one of the Zanni characters alongside other lower-class mischevious, comedic 'naughty' (anti-authority) characters like Harlequin.

As a Romanian child, I saw both Pinocchio and Burattino plays, but somehow never made the connection! This is quite interesting. Burattino was akin to a comedy to me, Pinocchio was like a drama.

Re: Pinocchio is weirder than you remembered

#70

Post by kombookcha »

michaelscott wrote: post #67
arjie wrote: post #15

When I was a child in India, the fairy tale books that you could get easily were a bunch of Eastern European ones: Russian, Karelian, that sort of thing. And they were full of crazy stuff, man. The cossacks were constantly getting their heads cut off and this and that. I went back to India a year ago, and one of the things I made sure to bring back were my copies of those books (and the Journey to the West translatio…

I had a partner who was a teacher in very rough areas; the school principal was routinely called by the local gang leader to let school out early because rival gangs planned to have a shootout in the afternoon. Kids there were abused in more ways than I want to remember or recount, babies were sometimes found in dumpsters, and the whole thing had this constantly oppressive and hopeless atmosphere. My partner did her…

It's important to remember that these stories are orignally an oral tradition that only fairly recently began to be written down. They would have had a myriad of differing versions depending on the preferences of the storyteller, their community and the intended effect on specific audiences.

In a way, retelling these stories in a way that's meaningful to the listeners is the way it always has been. We just have to remember that the darker versions also served a purpose of sense-making, and they can come to serve it again if we need them.

Good on your partner for trying to help those kids.

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