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Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

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Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#101
post #69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to play Pandora, what if the net effect of uncovering all these unknown attack vectors is it actually empties the holsters of every national intelligence service around the world? Just an idea I have been playing with. Say it basically cleans up everything and everyone looking for exploits has to start from scratch except “scratch” is now a place where any useful piece of software has been fuzz tested, property t…

TBH this is a pretty good way of looking at it. Yeah we're seeing an explosion of vulnerabilities being found right now, but that (hopefully) means those vulnerabilities are all being cleaned up and we're entering a more hardened era of software. Minus the software packages that are being intentionally put out as exploits, of course. Maybe some might say it's too optimistic and naive, but I think you have a good poin…

> we're entering a more hardened era of software

This is one force that operates. Another is that, in an effort to avoid depending on such a big attack surface, people are increasingly rolling their own code (with or without AI help) where they might previously have turned to an open source library.

I think the effect will generally be an increase in vulnerabilities, since the hand-rolled code hasn't had the same amount of time soaking in the real world as the equivalent OS library; there's no reason to assume the average author would magically create fewer bugs than the original OS library authors initially did. But the vulnerabilities will have much narrower scope: If you successfully exploit an OS library, you can hack a large fraction of all the code that uses it, while if you successfully exploit FooCorp's hand-rolled implementation, you can only hack FooCorp. This changes the economic incentive of funding vulnerabilities to exploit -- though less now than in the past, when you couldn't just point an LLM at your target and tell it "plz hack".

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#102
post #65

This was always a nightmare waiting to happen. The sheer mass of packages and the consequent vast attack surface for supply chain attacks was always a problem that was eventually going to blow up in everyone's face. But it was too convenient. Anyone warning about it or trying to limit the damage was shouted down by people who had no experience of any other way of doing things. "import antigravity" is just too easy to…

So, to play Pandora, what if the net effect of uncovering all these unknown attack vectors is it actually empties the holsters of every national intelligence service around the world? Just an idea I have been playing with. Say it basically cleans up everything and everyone looking for exploits has to start from scratch except “scratch” is now a place where any useful piece of software has been fuzz tested, property t…

Faults are injected into the code at a constant rate per developer. Then there's the intentional injections.

Auto-installing random software is the problem. It was a problem when our parents did it, why would it be a good idea for developers to do it?

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#103

"Wait a week to install software" does not work. Just a few months ago a massive exploit hit the web, which was a timed attack which sat for more than a month before executing. If everyone starts waiting a week, their exploits will wait 2 weeks. Cyber criminals do not need to exploit you immediately, they just need to exploit you. (It also doesn't change a large range of vuln classes like typosquatting)

well then let's wait a month or even two months. The point of the wait period is primarily to avoid the new installation of exploits, not the execution of already installed exploits.

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#104
post #99

This was always a nightmare waiting to happen. The sheer mass of packages and the consequent vast attack surface for supply chain attacks was always a problem that was eventually going to blow up in everyone's face. But it was too convenient. Anyone warning about it or trying to limit the damage was shouted down by people who had no experience of any other way of doing things. "import antigravity" is just too easy to…

I've been wanting a capability based security model for years. Argued about it here in fact. Capabilities are kind of an object pointer with associated permissions - like a unix file descriptor. We should have: - OS level capabilities. Launched programs get passed a capability token from the shell (or wherever you launched the program from). All syscalls take a capability as the first argument. So, "open path /foo" b…

Note that capabilities would not help for those bugs we are discussing today.

Those exploits are in kernel, and the userspace is only calling the normal, allowed calls. Removing global open()/listen()/etc.. with capability-based versions would still allow one to invoke the same kernel bugs.

(Now, using microkernel like seL4 where the kernel drivers are isolated _would_ help, but (1) that's independent from what userspace does, you can have POSIX layer with seL4 and (2) that would be may more context switches, so a performance drop)

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#105
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More a case for something like this from Show HN three months ago https://github.com/artifact-keeper An artifact manager. Only get what you approve. So you can get fast updates when needed and consistently known stable when you need it. Does need a little config override - easy work. I had my own janky tooling for something like it. This is a good project.

Does that really scale well? Thanks to cascading dependencies, even a medium sized project can import hundreds of dependencies. Can a developer really review them all to figure out if they are safe and that there's not security fix that was fixed in a newer version of the package?

Yes, that is what is required. Every dependency needs an internal owner and reviewer. Every change needs to be reviewed and brought into the internal repository.

If no one is willing to stand up and say "yes this is safe and of acceptable quality", why use it?

It's a software engineering version of the professional engineering stamp.

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#106
post #69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to play Pandora, what if the net effect of uncovering all these unknown attack vectors is it actually empties the holsters of every national intelligence service around the world? Just an idea I have been playing with. Say it basically cleans up everything and everyone looking for exploits has to start from scratch except “scratch” is now a place where any useful piece of software has been fuzz tested, property t…

TBH this is a pretty good way of looking at it. Yeah we're seeing an explosion of vulnerabilities being found right now, but that (hopefully) means those vulnerabilities are all being cleaned up and we're entering a more hardened era of software. Minus the software packages that are being intentionally put out as exploits, of course. Maybe some might say it's too optimistic and naive, but I think you have a good poin…

I agree with the prediction but not the timing. We won't enter a more hardened era of software until after a long period of security vulnerabilities.

Rivers caught on fire for a hundred years before the EPA was formed.

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#108

This was always a nightmare waiting to happen. The sheer mass of packages and the consequent vast attack surface for supply chain attacks was always a problem that was eventually going to blow up in everyone's face. But it was too convenient. Anyone warning about it or trying to limit the damage was shouted down by people who had no experience of any other way of doing things. "import antigravity" is just too easy to…

Thinks might have to start considering server side technologies a bit more if at least being mindful of build processes.

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this, this is something I don't understand there are a billion ways to gain root once you control the user that regulary uses sudo. this is only scary for rootless containers as it skips an isolation layer, but we've started shipping distroless containers which are not vulnerable to this due to the fact that they lack priviledge escalation commands such as su or sudo. never trust software to begin with, sandbox every…

> this, this is something I don't understand there are a billion ways to gain root once you control the user that regulary uses sudo. I won't enter into all the details but... It's totally possible to not have the sudo command (or similar) on a system at all and to have su with the setuid bit off. On my main desktop there's no sudo command there are zero binaries with the setuid bit set. The only way to get root invo…

Do you install system-wide software at all? How do you configure it?

That's my main reason to use "sudo" on the desktop.

I suppose I could install every piece of software locally, either from source or via flatpak, but this is a lot of work and much harder than doing it the easy way and using global install via my distro. Plus, non-distro installs are much more likely to be out of date and contain vulnerabilities of their own.

Re: Maybe you shouldn't install new software for a bit

#110
post #39

You don't need a kernel LPE to root a Linux developer machine. Just alias sudo to sudo-but-also-keep-password-and-execute-a-payload in ~/.bashrc and wait up to 24 hours. Maybe also simulate some breakage by intercepting other commands and force the user to run 'sudo systemctl' or something sooner rather than later.

right, a bigger issue is multitenant systems, which are common in academia (I manage several such systems for various experiments). Now, we generally trust the users to not be malicious, but most don't get sudo, because physicists tend to think they know what they're doing when they don't really (except for me, of course).

Something that concerns me more is I use things like gemini-cli or claude-cli via their own, non-sudo accounts with no ssh keys or anything on my laptop, but a LPE means they can find away around such restrictions if they feel like it (and they might).

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