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Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

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Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost of doing this as well as the time you need to invest are what puts pressure on you. I’ll have to ask what would happen if you do not comply. The Danish are nice people, but they really do not like if you break the social rules, so I guess it would get intense verry fast.

> The Danish are nice people Just like I thought. I'm sure your solution would work when majority are nice people. That won't work on people who are from "lower social circles". We still have a lot of them in Poland and don't know how to make them behave better, because trying to make them behave better typically results in defensiveness about their way of life and a lot of excuses about their circumstances. They onl…

My experience with humanity is:

Most humans are nice people. Many are also overwhelmed, self absorbed and make excuses.

That general observation, for me at least, describes the world from rural Pakistan to backwater Tschechia.

The only exception were groups that had a very strong in-group out-group separation. These people always treated me with too much suspicion to express passing kindness.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Danish are nice people Just like I thought. I'm sure your solution would work when majority are nice people. That won't work on people who are from "lower social circles". We still have a lot of them in Poland and don't know how to make them behave better, because trying to make them behave better typically results in defensiveness about their way of life and a lot of excuses about their circumstances. They onl…

My experience with humanity is: Most humans are nice people. Many are also overwhelmed, self absorbed and make excuses. That general observation, for me at least, describes the world from rural Pakistan to backwater Tschechia. The only exception were groups that had a very strong in-group out-group separation. These people always treated me with too much suspicion to express passing kindness.

> Most humans are nice people. Many are also overwhelmed, self absorbed and make excuses.

I agree, but bullies actually come mostly from that last group. Putting pressure on overwhelmed, self-absorbed or excuse-prone people in order to educate their children better won't work. I think bullying is because of lack of proper emotional education of children, it would be better to educate those parents and children in how to behave and why, but that requires resources most schools won't have and I've never seen anyone actually teaching this in schools.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#83
post #78

I see at least 2 issues with the physical punishment: - it will only make the bullies taking their revenge on vulnerable ones with even more cruelty. And they will plan it carefully to be hard/impossible to prove. It will lead to the escalation, not to the resolution - the power will be abused, it's inevitable. I would be so scared to be in a class where "teacher" has the power to harm me physically! (to clarify: I a…

As I previously mentioned, if you actually grew up in a system where corporal punishment is carried out, you would find that point two is not such a bother. No one cares whether a parent or teacher can cane them except they were in the wrong of course, perhaps because it is a culture and a shared experience and I knew a lot of children growing up who prefer the canning to other form of punishment.

I think the issue lies in your conflating caning and other forms of corporal punishment with physical harm. It is not the same as hitting a student or throwing a bottle at someone; it can be done very humanely. Sure, abuse is inevitable, and I could point to many teachers who were terrible and took out their issues on students, but such cases were easily resolved by reporting them to the principal or bringing parents to school the next day to file a complaint.

In

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piles of western research. Eastern psych corpus suggest opposite. Well it's more nuanced, some combination of permissive / neglectful parenting styles. IIRC the rough TLDR is engaged tiger parents with mild CP vs hands off parents with no CP... guess who had better academic performance, social regulation etc. Something something kids find engaged parent with a little tough love = being cared for vs hands off = neglec…

Got a link to a study or meta-study? I tried searching, but the results I can find from Singapore match Western research. A notable divergence here is that Singapore leverages the death penalty _much, much_ more heavily than even the US does. Per capita death penalties were 20.3x higher in Singapore than the US. Deterrence means a lot less when you don't have to worry about recidivism because the person is dead. That…

This 20+ years ago, I think look up "guan" / 管 (to govern) parenting style studies. For quick search, maybe research by Shek on HK school kids, only because name sounds familiar, I don't have access to psych journals anymore.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18047239/

I think look for east asian studies on behavior control / psychologic control and academic outcomes. Usually it was framed in kids raised by "invested" parents with (or without) CP will do better academically than kids who are neglected, i.e. hands off parents. Caveat those research shows CP can still lead to emotional regulation problems, but also higher academic achievement, which IMO what literature / or western rational misses, it's very east asian lens though, you raise kids do well in school, they will get decent opportunities in competitive east Asian environment -> integrate better with society -> have less chance of antisocial behavior.

Rest personal opinion.

I think studies even then say CP also reinforces entire generational violence cycle etc, shit west find horrid, but in east asia it just means strict parenting with optional CP -> prevent anti social behavior... so generation CP loop not virtuous or anything but functional. Like from memory the studies were not pro CP, or CP doesn't have negative effects, just CP effective corrective tool for some, which when applied to east asia society/social layer = if your kid going to have no future without CP, might as well as apply it, because beating a kid to pass national exams opens more opportunities for good life than not. Kids there have that context for "tough love". Asia diaspora with academic focus brings this with them to west. Same from other diaspora (i.e. first gen immigrants from poor countries) that beats kids for not trying hard enough to "make it" because they're socially disadvantaged vs locals/natives. Then subsequent generations adopt western soft parenting, grades / work ethic reverts to mean, which IS (generally) fine in advanced economy context since you can be pretty stupid in west and still do alright. Hence in west-minded find CP archaic, until west starts realizing soft parenting is generating soft populous that is geopolitically not competitive (current anxieties)... which was previously covered up via immigration... from diasporas that are not soft.

Singapore executes like 20 people a year, there are way more than 20 bad apples there. Either way, I think punitive state violence and corporal punishment as parenting instrument different topics. Should state beat people for deterrence, I don't know. Does it have affect on social order? I think statistically likely, maybe not worthwhile. And for some cultures mass catharsis from punitive justice is not... unuseful. Does it prevent individual recidivism? Broadly I don't think so, desperate people do desperate things. Should parents have CP as tool? Yes, shouldn't be universal but also not prohibited - some kids might need a slap or two early in life to shape behavior that correlate with social / upward mobility "success". Which matters in some society much more than others.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#85

[flagged]

If you follow the article link they reference a WHO (another UN organization) report regarding their position and review of research: https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/B09424

Thanks.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And today the drunk father would lose the responsibility for his child which is a better and non violent answer.

> father would lose the responsibility for his child This HN discussion of systemic abuse in US Catholic orphanages last century also discusses vast, documented ongoing abuse in both religious and state run care/foster systems around the globe. Statistically, these systems cause more abuse than they prevent, and should only be a last resort. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17852129

Why do you assume that it works such in America = world wide? I was in such a system but I was a relief. But not America

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#87
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How Germany or Denmark or Sweden failed?

>How Germany Do you really need examples of Germany failing as a civilized society?

Id like to hear. At least people aren't beaten up by teachers or in custody.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you can force somebody to stay until police arrives but unnecessary violence is forbidden

And what’d be the point? The police will not be interested in the would-be phone thief, calling them would be of negative value to society.

Why do you think?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#89

I didn’t expect to open the comments and find people who were pro beating children on Hacker News. I find this abuse horrific and you should speak to a therapist if you think this is okay. Absolutely barbaric behavior.

I'm sure there are a few such comments, since you say so, but I read most of the thread and didn't see any.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#90
post #25
post #4

Solution against bullies: a bigger bully.

I'm no fan of caning or physical punishment for crimes, but isn't that how a lot of bullying ends? The victim snaps, the bully gets beaten up or injured in some way and the latter finds an easier target to go after? At the end of the day, a bully picks on those they perceive to not be a threat, whether that's a school bully using physical violence or a copyright/patent troll harassing individual creators and small co…

> The victim snaps, the bully gets beaten up

The unspoken rule is that the victim must only do hand-combat. They cannot use weapon in any way. If the victim uses weapon to defend themselves, they will be in the wrong.

Life is hard for victims. They are often bullied because they are weaker. And the only way out is to do hand-combat.

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