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The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

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Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#91

Post by nixon_why69 »

WalterBright wrote: post #68
Terr_ wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of a strawman though, innit? If "civilization will stagnate and humans will be unmotivated blobs" is one extreme, then the other is something like "condoning economic genocide". In reality, few are concerned that Alice has a much nicer car than Bob, compared to concerns that Bob will die without insulin. Get Bob his insulin, and he will still be motivated to have a nicer car.

> Kind of a strawman though, innit? Not at all. It's the primary reason why communes fail.

I think there's likely a steel man version of "solving inequality" that's a little less radical than "establish a commune".

Something like "arrest the trend towards upward accumulation which also reduces incentives to excel", maybe.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#92

Post by hilariously »

WalterBright wrote: post #58
hilariously wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they were promised it - fundamentally leaving the rich out of the social safety net doesn't even get us much and administrating the distinction costs money, and I am no fan of the wealthiest get additional benefits. I think solving inequality will not be about reducing access to said safety nets but increasing them for all.

The problem with "solving inequality" is there is no incentive for one to do better. If one can live as well as everyone else, with no effort, why should one make the effort?

True, but I dont think any UBI scheme says "everyone live at the same level" more like "everyone gets enough to not die" which is a very different framing.

Work or die vs Work to gain additional benefits.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#93

Post by hilariously »

WalterBright wrote: post #49
hilariously wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equity? You mean equality (and that's still about rights, not pay.) Equity is just a stake in the outcome at all.

Equality: starting out at the same position, for example we have equal rights under the law Equity: winding up at the same position, for example when everybody in a race wins the same medal, regardless of how hard they trained or how talented they are. An apocryphal story about equity: https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

There's no definition of equity that I can find that returns that result so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#94

Post by croon »

opo wrote: post #66
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why people downvoted this because it is obviously correct. In a democracy you have to buy the votes of the largest constituency with other people’s money, which in this case is the boomers votes with the younger generations money. This will continue until nothing is left. This already happened with the triple pension lock in GB, mathematically ensuring the bankruptcy of the state.

>...I don’t know why people downvoted this because it is obviously correct. In a democracy you have to buy the votes of the largest constituency with other people’s money, In the last few decades both political parties in the USA have tried to outdo each other in reckless over-spending, but for the first couple hundred years that wasn't the case. Something changed.

There wasn't a speculative economy based on increasingly distant balance sheets.

The stock market was initially created to crowdfund big investments. It's still that in theory, but in practice it's something very different now.

In a similar manner to bastardizing the stock market, the national budget is run in any way that is short term beneficial and long term nebulous.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#95

Post by izacus »

johngossman wrote: post #80
floodfx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Doge had no power.

Welcome to my rathole: Venetian history. To expand on your thesis, the Council of Ten was the executive power in Venice, but the Doge and minor council attended the Council of Ten meetings and the Doge often chaired those meetings. And even if he was powerless, the Council was made up of other old men. I don't want to push this whole argument, I'm not recommending we adopt the Venetian constitution. But I don't think…

Can you explain how is the example of Venetian republic relevant for something like a massive multi-cultural, multi-racial federation in 21st century? One that's led by 100s of old people not just ten rich family heads?

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#96

Post by Steve16384 »

bruce511 wrote: post #34
lenerdenator wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's happening in the US, too. I know of a senior couple where the husband recently retired after forty years of working in a professional field. They live in a house worth over $750k that is paid off. They have three new or late-model vehicles. Both the husband and wife could, if necessary, work for an income. They also collect Old Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance checks after enrolling for them. The common…

If you work for 40 years, chances are you will have accumulated some assets. I'm not sure that "sell your house and cars to pay for food" is a policy that will be popular. Equally those same people have paid taxes for 40 years, paid into social security (to the benefit of their elders) and so on. Keeping them in the work-force is largely undesirable. A job occupied by a 70 year old is a job not occupied by someone yo…

> If retirement age was say 80 instead of 60, there would be 25% fewer jobs to go around.

By that logic, when the population was 25% less than it is now (~1980s), there was a job for everyone.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#97

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

opo wrote: post #66
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why people downvoted this because it is obviously correct. In a democracy you have to buy the votes of the largest constituency with other people’s money, which in this case is the boomers votes with the younger generations money. This will continue until nothing is left. This already happened with the triple pension lock in GB, mathematically ensuring the bankruptcy of the state.

>...I don’t know why people downvoted this because it is obviously correct. In a democracy you have to buy the votes of the largest constituency with other people’s money, In the last few decades both political parties in the USA have tried to outdo each other in reckless over-spending, but for the first couple hundred years that wasn't the case. Something changed.

You can read this exact criticism of democracy in „Athenaion Politeia“, (The Old Oligarch), 5th century BCE. There is nothing new under the sun.

It always worked like this. Democracy is simply an incredibly destructive form of government.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#98

Post by WalterBright »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #91
WalterBright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kind of a strawman though, innit? Not at all. It's the primary reason why communes fail.

I think there's likely a steel man version of "solving inequality" that's a little less radical than "establish a commune". Something like "arrest the trend towards upward accumulation which also reduces incentives to excel", maybe.

If we did that, we wouldn't have SpaceX, Nvidia, AI, etc.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#99

Post by WalterBright »

lenerdenator wrote: post #71
WalterBright wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell are they able to collect on that? People in the higher income brackets get far less back on SS than they paid in.

They shouldn't get any. This is a fund for widows, orphans, and those who are simply unable to earn any sort of money to fund their survival. They're none of the above.

SS was set up as an annuity, not a charity.

Re: The Old Guard: Confronting America's Gerontocratic Crisis

#100

Post by RickS »

johngossman wrote: post #89
RickS wrote: post #56

I have trouble predicting how public sentiment will evolve over time. I'm not that young, and still and the last 10 years have left me with an absolutely blistering distrust of the 70+ crowd on any matter pertaining to positions of authority. I'd like to see ~67 and ~72 become the other 18 and 21: hard lines beyond which the law progressively rescinds the presumption of total competence. It's not a pretty solution. T…

Go look at the demographics of the last election and then tell me which groups shouldn't be allowed to vote.

That's a response to an opinion I don't hold, but I could have been more clear. The claim I'm making is about the fitness to hold office. Specifically: septo/octogenarians belong at the ballot box, but not on the ballot. If you'd like to dissuade me of something, that's the meat of it.
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