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Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

simonwillison.net

621–630 of 958 posts

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#621
post #440

The disconnect for AI is that it is a jagged frontier and it only really shines when one of its jagged frontiers extends counter to one of your valleys. If you've been writing Perl for 30 years, you might not want to learn JavaScript just to make a little fun idea in your head to show your wife. Vibe code that shit man. Who cares? Your wife does not care about LOC or those internal design decisions you made. If you'r…

AI is just revealing the two types of people in this line of work. Those who don’t actually like software and just do it because it’s lucrative, and the actual nerds who care.

I've posited for a while now that the people who find spicy autocomplete to be exciting are the people who can't really do what it does.

I played with Image Playground last year some time. It was really fun. You know why? I can't draw, and I can't paint, to save my life. It's letting me do something I can't do well/at all on my own.

Using an LLM to do something I can do, with the caveat that it's pretty mediocre at the task, and needs to be constantly monitored to check it isn't doing stupid things? If I wanted that I'd just get an intern and watch them copy crappy examples from StackOverflow all day.

The same logic explains the use of LLM's to write emails/other long form text.

It makes accessible something that people otherwise cannot do well. Go look at submissions on community writing sites. The people who write because they're good at it, are adamant they don't use an LLM.

People use LLM's to do things they're otherwise not able to do. I will die on this hill.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is just revealing the two types of people in this line of work. Those who don’t actually like software and just do it because it’s lucrative, and the actual nerds who care.

I care about solving problems for and delivering value to my users. The software is simply a means to that end. It needs to work well, but that does not mean every line of code requires an artisanal touch and high attention to detail.

I think there's some ambiguity in the discussion around what people mean when they say "good code".

Good code for a business is robust code, that's functionally correct, efficient where it needs to be and does not cost too much.

I believe most developers who care about good code are trying to articulate this, they care about a strong system that delivers well, which comes from good architecture.

LLMs actually deliver pretty well on the more trivial code cleanlines stuff, or can be made to pretty trivially with linters, so I don't think devs working with it should be worried about that aspect.

What is changing fast is that last point I mentioned, "that doesn't cost too much" because if you can get 70% of the requirements for 10% of the perceived up front cost, that calculus has changed. But you are not going to be getting the same level of system architecture for that time/cost ratio. That can bite you later, as it does often enough with human coders too.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#623
post #289
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want an example of a project that condensed 5 years into 6 months and exploded past the competition I suggest looking at OpenClaw. The first line of code was written on November 25th. It achieved adoption in the "personal agents" space that far exceeded the other companies that had tried the same thing. (Whether or not you trust the quality of the software you can't deny the impact it had in such a short time.…

OpenClaw is definitely not a "5 years" project pre-AI though. That was more like a month of greenfield work compressed into a weekend -- which is still really impressive, don't get me wrong! -- but I think the point is we're not seeing mature , legacy codebases get outcompeted by new, agile, AI-driven codebases; we're seeing greenfield projects get spun up faster. Which, again, is still impressive and valuable. If ag…

41,964 commits is a lot more than "a month of greenfield work".

https://tools.simonwillison.net/github-repo-stats?repo=OpenC...

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#624
post #294
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want an example of a project that condensed 5 years into 6 months and exploded past the competition I suggest looking at OpenClaw. The first line of code was written on November 25th. It achieved adoption in the "personal agents" space that far exceeded the other companies that had tried the same thing. (Whether or not you trust the quality of the software you can't deny the impact it had in such a short time.…

I don’t see OpenClaw making much of an impact. Maybe in your bubble?

There are credible reports of regular people in China attending dedicated events for help getting started with OpenClaw. They're not in my bubble!

https://www.reuters.com/technology/openclaw-enthusiasm-grips...

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#625
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost no one works on stuff like that, so congrats on finding a corner case I guess.

Complete nonsense. There are people who write software for hedge funds, quant firms, aviation and defense systems, data center providers, major telecom services used by hospitals and emergency services and semiconductor firms and the big oil and energy companies and that is NOT "almost no-one" and these companies see and make hundreds of billions of dollars a year on average. This is even before me mentioning big tec…

I could list dozens more sectors of the software industry that would far outnumber those you listed. And even within those you listed, those working on the mission critical parts are a very tiny fraction. Statistically, that is almost no-one.

E.g. there are 100s of millions of lines of code in a car, but the vast majority of that concerns non-critical parts like the dashboard; the primary Engine Control Unit has like ~10K LoC, and the number of people that work on it are proportionally smaller.

And if you think that is very well-designed code, here's something to help you sleep better: https://www.reddit.com/r/coding/comments/384mjp/nasa_softwar...

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#626
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good engineers need to be allowed to be good. If they are told to pump features or lose their job, they might act like bad engineers as well.

Aren't they more likely to leave?

Depends. If they have a good salary, nice coworkers, WFH. If they manage to tolerate having to produce crap they might stick around if other factors are above average.

For someone with 3-4 kids who lives far from the city, WFH and time flexibility can be important motivators.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us do actually have intimate knowledge in certain areas where guidance of an AI takes longer than doing it yourself. It's not about typing speed, it's that when you know something really really well the solution/code is already known to you or the very act of thinking about the problem makes the solution known to you in full. When that happens it's less text to write that solution than it is to write a suffic…

I don't believe this. Either you're lying, or you just haven't caught on with how to use Agentic AI. Everything I do to interact with my computer is through an agent now.

I don't believe this. Either you're lying, or you just haven't caught on how to use a computer.

Everything I do to interact with my computer is still the same.

See how boring you are?

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#628
post #440

The disconnect for AI is that it is a jagged frontier and it only really shines when one of its jagged frontiers extends counter to one of your valleys. If you've been writing Perl for 30 years, you might not want to learn JavaScript just to make a little fun idea in your head to show your wife. Vibe code that shit man. Who cares? Your wife does not care about LOC or those internal design decisions you made. If you'r…

Agree except for this part

> If you're at work and they really care about getting something out of the door, do whatever you think is best.

If you don’t mind being jobless, sure do whatever you think is best. Not all of us can simply switch companies easily. Folks need to realise that AI in a company setting works for the benefit of the company, not for the individual.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#629
post #533
post #440

The disconnect for AI is that it is a jagged frontier and it only really shines when one of its jagged frontiers extends counter to one of your valleys. If you've been writing Perl for 30 years, you might not want to learn JavaScript just to make a little fun idea in your head to show your wife. Vibe code that shit man. Who cares? Your wife does not care about LOC or those internal design decisions you made. If you'r…

>Also, when did we stop liking to learn? Why is it a bad thing to know all the ins and outs of a programming language? I do not know the inns and out of the assembly layer my high level code end up as. It's not because I don't like to learn, it's because I genuinely don't need to. At a certain level of AI performance, how will this be any different?

Because you may not know the specifics of the assembly being generated, but you’ve likely learned a language built on top of assembly. And the compilers do some great tricks behind the scenes to generate efficient assembly, but those tricks are specifically coupled to semantics of the source language.

An LLM is not coupled to anything and can generate output that simply does not relate to the input. This doesn’t happen with compilers, and if it does, then it’s a specific bug to be addressed. An LLM can never guarantee certain output based on the input.

If I write x If I tell an LLM that “I want numbers up to 100.” Will that give me The language is ambiguous where the code is specific

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#630
post #440

The disconnect for AI is that it is a jagged frontier and it only really shines when one of its jagged frontiers extends counter to one of your valleys. If you've been writing Perl for 30 years, you might not want to learn JavaScript just to make a little fun idea in your head to show your wife. Vibe code that shit man. Who cares? Your wife does not care about LOC or those internal design decisions you made. If you'r…

AI is just revealing the two types of people in this line of work. Those who don’t actually like software and just do it because it’s lucrative, and the actual nerds who care.

You are probably talking about people who just crunch out some half baked solutions for the sake of getting somewhere.

But there are other nerds who care, just not about the code quality, but about conversion, testing out business ideas quickly, getting to know their customers better.

There are nerds who care about business strategy.

There are nerds who care about accounting principles and clean financial reporting.

There are nerds who care about sales targets and partnerships.

There are many types of nerds out there. Don’t limit nerds to engineers, because “tech” world is not just an engineering world anymore. All these nerds you can team up with to build meaningful things, because they do care.

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