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BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

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Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#151

Post by mghackerlady »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #65
NickC25 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. Because Elon is proving himself to be quite an idiot. China was more than happy to welcome him in, and have him teach them how to build an EV. They simply copied what they could and improved on it. "The communists will happily sell the capitalists the rope the capitalists hang themselves with"

It’s other capitalists that stole the tech. China is a country of capitalists living under a communist regime.

capitalists the communists put up with because it's better for communism in the long run

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#152

Post by simonask »

sureshv wrote: post #84
fusslo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills. They say they're worried when the building stops. Even more people will be out of jobs. And when the nation age…

I always take these views with a grain of salt, many immigrant's view of their home country is ossified at the time of emigration.

In the same vein, it’s reasonable to take a foreigner’s view with a grain of salt. For all its impressive progress, China doesn’t show off its problems.

The “West” had the same problem many times during the first Cold War, where things in the Soviet Union seemed really great from the outside. Only after the collapse did the truth become clear.

Now, I don’t think China is even remotely similar, but never forget that it is not a free society.

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#153

Post by [deleted] »

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #119
plaidthunder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I called out Lada in my original comment is because it's a counterpoint to what you just said. The Lada was the result of too much protectionism. Produced from an empire that was too inward looking and feared interacting with the rest of the world on equal terms. BYD keeps performing well in the rest of the world. If we hold US consumers hostage to prop up companies like Tesla, we risk allowing them to sta…

I prefer to take my chances on stagnation vs Chinese industrial hegemony

[deleted]

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#154

Post by floxy »

atonse wrote: post #16
TulliusCicero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind restricting Chinese imports in principle, since China is well known to be very protectionist, moreso than Western countries for sure. Trade needs to be a two way street. That said, it is indeed disappointing that we can't get their affordable EVs over here. Western legacy automakers really need a kick in the ass (especially since Tesla seems to just be phoning it in now).

With EVs, Tesla's the only one in the US not phoning it in. I used to think they were until I got a new Model Y Juniper. I don't count Rivian or Lucid until they actually have even somewhat affordable EVs. But pretty much everyone else in the US is doing a piss poor job with EVs and just don't seem to care at all. Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. I agree that trade needs to be a two way stree…

>Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning.

Here's to hoping their EV Maverick is still on track:

Ford Teases New Details About Its $30K EV Truck Coming Next Year

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a71204448/ford-ev-truck-fu...

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#155

Post by cucumber3732842 »

Larrikin wrote: post #68
IncreasePosts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BYD seal is basically comparable to a model 3, except it has a more classic car aesthetic as opposed to a giant screen. What are we missing out on?

This shallow comparison could apply to any car. Are Toyota cars just Ford cars with a different logo? Back when people used to buy Teslas, the company was notorious for how long it took to get repairs done. Even if BYD was exactly like Tesla theres many ways they could differentiate themselves if they were allowed in the US

>This shallow comparison could apply to any car. Are Toyota cars just Ford cars with a different logo?

To a first order approximation yes.

The online discussion is dominated by fanboys who don't actually know squat and people who have an expensive purchase they need to feel justified in.

The differences between two competing cars of different makes is way, way, way less than these people will make it out to be.

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#156

Post by aesch »

beardyw wrote: post #103
aesch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like BYD is a much bigger threat to Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan. The auto industry is big in the US but an insignificant amount of total exports. Germany and Japan could both lose their cash cows if the Chinese auto industry dominates international sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e...

That's not really like with like. If you divided the states in USA into countries, their sales would be "international". The designation is misleading.

The main point is that BYD is an existential threat to Germany and Japan. Per Wikipedia (List of countries by exports + List of countries by vehicle exports, latest available data):

- US: ~$144B vehicle exports / ~$3.23T total exports → ~4.5% - Germany: ~$280B / ~$1.99T → ~14% - Japan: ~$151B / ~$922B → ~16%

Even if you treat US states as separate 'countries' and balloon the US export denominator further, the ratio doesn't move into the same league. Autos are roughly 3x more important to Germany and ~3.5x more important to Japan as a share of foreign-earned revenue than they are to the US.

BYD taking the US auto export share is an inconvenience for a few states. BYD taking Germany's or Japan's is regime-altering for the whole national economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#157

Post by holmesworcester »

mghackerlady wrote: post #112
baq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BYD has pretty amazing tech to be honest, but putting protectionism as an argument against the US and pro BYD in the same sentence is naive at best. The CCP allowed BYD to exist and the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend regardless of any human right concerns elsewhere.

Running a business isn't a human right. Also, I hate the conflation people have that the ability for the CCP to do something means it would. Furthermore, the party in socialist states is basically just the government. It being called a party and being explicitly ideological in function isn't, in practice, very different from the US having something called the federal government that has a constitutional ideology

Doing anything you want to do that does not harm anyone else, and helps some, is most certainly a human right.

To arbitrarily repress this most basic impulse, the one to go after a dream to make better ways to do things, is severely anti-human.

Most businesses are in this category.

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#158

Post by ErneX »

fusslo wrote: post #63
throwaway_7274 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.

I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills. They say they're worried when the building stops. Even more people will be out of jobs. And when the nation age…

Visit if you can, and take some bullet trains! We had a blast last year there.

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#159

Post by bdangubic »

plaidthunder wrote: post #92
IncreasePosts wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BYD seal is between $35k and $50k USD in various non US, non China countries that I checked Mexico, Germany, australia, Thailand. Competition is great but it doesn't mean that the cars in America are bad. The lada was a failure of a car compared to other similar cars available elsewhere. That is not the case here.

I have one of the first runs of model 3s. It still runs perfectly. Great battery life. I'm happy with it. Nevertheless, I find it frustrating that I can't even consider buying a BYD as my next electric daily driver. Because when Tesla and BYD enter markets together Tesla is often getting creamed. That makes me curious as to why. This de-facto ban of BYD in the USA does nothing but encourage stagnation.

> That makes me curious as to why

The why part is easy - Tesla is about as outdated of a car as it gets, it is practically same car and there are only few options. I own 2014 Model S and my neighbour has 2025 Model S - it is the same car when you look at it. We also got Model 3 (from many years ago) which was then blown up a little into Model Y and we have X from a decade ago. These are ancient cars. The tech inside may have improved but the offering is basically for my grandparents now.

Re: BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

#160

Post by dangus »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #72

This is not surprising as other manufacturers continue moving away from producing cheap cars. One notable exception is dacia. For all the China lovers here it's not a clear sign of Chinese superiority. I saw a video on youtube recently exploring BYD. It's success is due to the fact that the Chinese government as part of their plan to dominate the global car industry gives them massive amounts of money. Which manufact…

I hear this all the time, but I would point out that US car manufacturers are heavily subsidized as well. I’m sure other countries do their own things that effectively subsidize their automotive industries as well.

NAFTA and its successor keeps a lot of automotive production and assembly in North America.

The chicken tax protects American manufacturers from foreign competition on trucks and vans.

Tesla was started on the foundations of inexpensive loans and a “free” factory courtesy of government economic stimulus.

GM was bailed out and briefly owned by the federal government, saved by below-market rate loans.

Stellantis is also an organization that owes its existence on a bankruptcy bail-out package.

The US financially incentivizes car usage, period. They underfund transit projects, allow the gas tax rate to lag inflation, make zoning laws that require car ownership, and more. One great way to subsidize car companies is to make car ownership mandatory.

State and local governments frequently give tax incentives to major assembly plants in the name of preserving jobs for their constituents. For example, GM had a $60 million tax break to keep the Lordstown, OH plant open. Some of this was clawed back after the plant closed anyway.

CAFE standards incentivize manufacturers to build SUVs that aren’t practical or popular in many other markets, essentially enshrining America-specific car design, further separating the American market from global car designs. Companies like BYD can’t compete with American cars if they don’t sell models that resemble popular choices like the Ford F-150, which are designs which would be completely insane if sold in the Chinese, Japanese, and European markets.

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