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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#51

Post by WalterBright »

jcgrillo wrote: post #39
trgn wrote: post #35

you dont need to have a conversation with your plumber. be polite, say something inane about the weather, listen to their advice on plumbing, that's it. no tradesperson is aching to have a conversation with the resident nuclear physicist or whatever. leave them alone to their work, pay promptly, thank them for their time. this is just neuroticism, and isn't really related to the ivys. it's a very common human dynamic…

If you actually did talk to your plumber, or electrician, or mechanic, or anyone else you view as "lower" than you, you might have actually learned something. Interesting paradox, that.

I usually ask them if I could watch them work. They always say yes. Then I watch what tools they use and how they use them and ask about them. They're always happy to tell me.

For example, I watched the cable guy install coax. I then bought the same tools he used, and later wired up the coax myself in the next house. I also watched tradesmen cut & sweat pipes, service my furnace, install molding, etc. All very interesting and useful.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#52

Post by jmyeet »

I'm reminded of the prescient 2005 commentary of George Carlin: "it's a big club and you ain't in it" [1].

Hollywood, in particular, is almost completely nepo baby captured. This is an oft-repeated trend where an industry goes into decline and the children of those who originally succeeded end up dominating it. I think there's a lot of this in politics too, particularly because government jobs (including staffers on campaigns and for representatives) don't pay a lot so you really have to come from an affluent background to afford to live.

It used to be that if you wanted to be a cast member on SNL you had to go to Harvard because of the Harvard Lampoon.

I've seen this issue with the doctor pipeline too. Various analyses show that coming from a high socioeconomic background is a massive advantage, even with med schools trying to provide more opportunities to candidates from a lower socioeconomic background. A few med schools now because of endowments have gone tuition-free but even here it seems (it's early days) like wealthier candidates get more of these opportunities. As a wealthier person you don't need to "waste" time on a job. You can do resume-packing activities (research, volunteering).

So circling back, elite education's role (IMHO) is to be exclusionary. It's to maintain this structure. "Social proof" is extremely important because a lot of opportunities in life aren't about talent or skill but connections and social factors. You go to Stanford and do CS and you get time in front of VCs. You get to know people who will start future unicorns through all their opportunities and connections. You will be one of these people or be an early employee.

If you're an academic, I once heard a friend in academia tell me "you'll never be unemployed in academic with a Harvard undergrad degree". Faculties like to boast about things like this. There's some hyperbole here but again, there's also some truth and it's social proof.

Look at the median age of a US homebuyer, currently 59 [2]. The only young people buying houses are in the upper percentiles of income, come from a wealthy background or their parents are otherwise paying for it because they bought a house in the 1980s and sat on it.

So back to Carlin, a lot of people end up intentionally or unintentionally defending this system through wanting the best for their children but in doing so, society is unravelling. Also, most of the people who prop up the current system just aren't in the club despite what they think.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso

[2]: https://www.apolloacademy.com/median-age-of-all-us-homebuyer...

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#53

Post by WalterBright »

cheschire wrote: post #34
havblue wrote: post #22

I think we're in a different world from twenty years ago. The upper-middle class kids I know understand that you can get your hands dirty and that a degree isn't a meal ticket to class security anymore. If you want to be a manager you have to understand the jobs of people you manage.

> If you want to be a manager you have to understand the jobs of people you manage. What? No you don’t. You have to know how to identify people you can trust, how to establish and grow that trust with them, and how to maintain that trust. If you have bidirectional trust, then you can successfully manage people who do things you don’t understand. Edit: read my reply to surgical_fire below

The military gives leadership classes to officers. In one class, the lieutenants were asked how would they raise a flagpole?

The lieutenants wrote out detailed plans for it. The instructor marked them all wrong. The correct answer was "Sergeant, get that flag pole up!"

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#54

Post by WalterBright »

bena wrote: post #23

This is a failure of curiosity. I can talk to plumbers. I can talk to electricians, hvac, construction guys, anyone in the trades. Because what they work on are essentially systems and systems are interesting to me. Trust me, these guys don't really mind talking shop. And they appreciate someone acknowledging that they do have knowledge and skill not everyone has.

bingo!

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#55

Post by xyhopguy »

ge96 wrote: post #42
TrackerFF wrote: post #36

Even though this is a now 18 year old article, you still see the same type of elitism in the various metropolitan areas, where these people gather to work in finance/consulting/tech/law. I've heard people be completely open about only wanting to mingle and network with "peers", where they'll immediately ditch people at networking events / parties / etc. if they're not up to the snuff. They'll ask what school you went…

There is also that idea of surrounding yourself with "good people" or like minded, people you want to be. I was friendly to everyone and one guy he just drank all the time, reeked of alcohol, no prospects in life, no ambition. Am I supposed to force myself to be around this person just to be nice/equal terms. I want to be around ambitious people.

No one wants to be around an alcoholic. But it's not to be nice, but to understand them, their struggles, and their perspectives.

Anecdote - I was at a concert with my brother, outside in the smoking area. A homeless woman came by, didn't say anything but was kinda just looking around. My brother is the only one who spoke to her, he offered his cigarette butt. Which is exactly what she was looking for.

Never would have occured to me- but I would guess it made her feel more seen and human.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#56

Post by WalterBright »

lenerdenator wrote: post #41

> You learn to think, at least in certain ways, and you make the contacts needed to launch yourself into a life rich in all of society’s most cherished rewards. To consider that while some opportunities are being created, others are being cancelled and that while some abilities are being developed, others are being crippled is, within this context, not only outrageous, but inconceivable. He's really overselling the "…

Um, my college education clearly rewired my brain. I learned how to study, and how to solve problems.

> To a large degree, you can feign "intelligence" as defined by these tests given a large amount of resources

That doesn't work for science & engineering.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#57

Post by jcgrillo »

surgical_fire wrote: post #38
cheschire wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to be a manager you have to understand the jobs of people you manage. What? No you don’t. You have to know how to identify people you can trust, how to establish and grow that trust with them, and how to maintain that trust. If you have bidirectional trust, then you can successfully manage people who do things you don’t understand. Edit: read my reply to surgical_fire below

During my career the only managers I could trust were the managers who could have some understanding of the work I was meant to do. It was alright if they didn't knew as much as I did. They just needed to know enough that I could have a meaningful conversation about what was going on in the projects they were trying to manage.

Good leaders always lead from the front. There's nothing special about this "knowledge work". It's the same as any other industrial job in this respect. A good foreman can do everyone's job better than them and knows how to keep the higher ups off your back. They're someone you look up to professionally. There's no way you can look up to someone who can't do the job well.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#58

Post by WalterBright »

beardyw wrote: post #13
rootusrootus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowledge work, of course, meaning it pays well but is less honest than real work. But I agree with you. It’s a trade. Just more recent than plumbing.

I often compare software to plumbing. No one else cares how it was done.

Much of software is a trade. But above a certain level, it is engineering.

For example, in my discussions with electricians, they understand very well how to wire up a house. But they don't actually know very much about electricity. For example, they had no idea what I was talking about when I objected them running the phone lines through the same holes as the high voltage. I said that due to inductive coupling, the phone lines would acquire a 60 Hz hum. The phone lines had to be run at 90 degrees to the high voltage wires.

They had no idea what inductive coupling was, whereas that's freshman electronics material.

I wound up removing all the phone lines and rewiring them myself. No hum!

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#59

Post by WalterBright »

onraglanroad wrote: post #48
WalterBright wrote: post #44

> You learn to think, at least in certain ways I remember getting a C on my economics exam. I asked an upperclassman to look at my answers, and what was wrong with them. He laughed, and said my mistake was not regurgitating the prof's leftist ideas. (At one point in class the prof stated that he believed in the equal distribution of all income.) I never bothered taking any subjective liberal arts classes after that.…

Oh, that's what happened to you! I wondered where that came from.

My dad, in later life, was a business/economics professor. I received a kitchen table education in economics from him. He & I would talk for hours and hours, sometimes to the annoyance of other family members.
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