Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

devblogs.microsoft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 250 posts

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#221

Post by 1718627440 »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #192
Silamoth wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not “random”, it’s whatever you’ve configured it to on your machine. Your choice of (e.g.) 3 spaces per tab shouldn’t be forced onto me if I prefer (e.g.) 4 spaces per tab. As long as you’re on your machine, you’ll see exactly the amount of code indentation you prefer - not something “random”. On someone else’s machine, well, that’s up to their preference, and it’s hard to complain about how someone else has the…

So when things don't line up... That's a feature? The reason I use indentation is so there's consistency between lines. When you use spaces, the semantics of indentation are maintained. If you don't like the indentation settings, just change them in the v-linter.

Tabs represent a logical indent, not a physical one, you choose how the mapping to physical indent is.

> So when things don't line up

Why would things ever not line up? There is 1/2 tabs indentation and it shows up as 1,3,7,8,42/2,6,14,16,84 indentation however you like it.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#222

Post by 1718627440 »

zzo38computer wrote: post #50
donatj wrote: post #14

As someone who prefers tabs (I'm not looking to argue), I once asked Brendan Eich on Twitter why he prefers spaces. His answer was more thoughtful than I'd expected. The tab key itself is hijacked by modern OS/UI behavior. It makes it complicated to actually type literal tab characters in certain contexts, particularly in the browser. I still prefer tabs (and I'm a Go developer), but he is absolutely correct about th…

It might be reasonable to have a separate key for "tab" vs "next field", as well as separate key for "line break" vs "send". (But, tab and line break are not applicable for all contexts.) However, it might also be reasonable to have a key or key combination (some programs use ^V) to enter control characters as data rather than as commands. It might also be a consideration when designing a new computer (which does not…

> as well as separate key for "line break" vs "send"

There is: Return vs. Enter. Sadly there are not many OSs and programs that honor this. I'm personally also sad about Scroll Lock. It would be useful, some programs even reinvent it, on Firefox it's basically F7.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#223

Post by DocTomoe »

This reads so much like a story in Gates' 'The Road Ahead' about IBM refusing graphical printing because some of their printers just couldn't, while at the same time this iteration makes no sense at all and is a bit weak on the details (e.g. not giving a rationale), that I wonder if someone linkedin^1 this. With respect to Raymond Chen.

[1] to linkedin: making up anecdotes in order to create engagement in a professional setting. Often in the form of 'Today I learned' or '15 things my toddler taught me about stockpile management'.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#224

Post by 1718627440 »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #89

I find keyboards fascinating because they have many anachronistic elements and design flaws, yet nobody outside of elitist mechanical keyboard circles seems to be willing to fix them. Everybody seems to just think "whatever, gotta live with it." Why do they still have an extra large Caps Lock key in such a prominent position? What does ScrLk key on my keyboard do? Why is there an Ins key when practically every text e…

> Why do they still have an extra large Caps Lock key in such a prominent position?

Because sometimes you still do want to insert text with all caps, for example as part of an ID. Also Caps Lock as opposed to Shift Look is quite useful when you want to insert caps and numbers quickly, again as part of IDs.

> What does ScrLk key on my keyboard do?

It switches between the cursor or scroll wheel or the mouse moving the cursor or the viewport/document. It's quite useful. Firefox e.g. implements this functionality under F7.

> Why is there an Ins key when practically every text edit field is in insert mode anyway?

To switch, because sometimes you do want replacement mode. Also it is useful for the Ctrl-/Shift-Ins, which is the original CUA key for what people now know as Ctrl-C/V. It is quite useful for when the latter means something else.

> How often do you actually use the Pause key and what does it do?

It used to still work for a while in Linux, but sadly they removed it. Also it is still useful for the CTRL-ALT SysRQ, Pause sequence to advise the OS, when nothing else works, or you don't want to shutdown properly. Also it feels quite powerful to tell the computer to be off, and it basically immediately being off.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#225

Post by otterley »

1718627440 wrote: post #219
Nition wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a Linux subsystem for Windows so we'll call it Windows Subsystem For Linux.

It's not a part of Linux, so it can't be a Linux subsystem. It is a part of Windows, so it is indeed a Windows subsystem. Also it started/replaced a part of the NT kernel called a Subsystem, so it is called a Windows Subsystem. I don't know where that strong objection to this particular name comes from. MS does do weird things with names, like with Live, .Net or CoPilot, but this isn't one of those, but in fact named…

Use of the English language can often lead to ambiguity.

In the case of "Windows subsystem for Linux", it can be reasonably read that "for Linux" means that the functionality applies to Linux, i.e., to provide it with a subsystem that gives it Windows functionality.

Similarly, in the case of "Linux subsystem for Windows", it can be reasonably read that "for Windows" means that the functionality applies to Windows, i.e., to provide it with a subsystem that gives it Linux functionality.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#226

Post by otterley »

wvenable wrote: post #136
Nition wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a Linux subsystem for Windows so we'll call it Windows Subsystem For Linux.

For trademark safety, this is the correct approach. You can say "Blah for XXX" and that's fine but if you say "XXX blah" then you can get into trouble.

As a lawyer trained in trademark law, I've never heard this. Do you have any references?

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#227

Post by ButlerianJihad »

wvenable wrote: post #136
Nition wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a Linux subsystem for Windows so we'll call it Windows Subsystem For Linux.

For trademark safety, this is the correct approach. You can say "Blah for XXX" and that's fine but if you say "XXX blah" then you can get into trouble.

What if you just apply for a free sublicense and you get approved and your massive cadre of attorneys aren't fighting each other over 5 letters?

Apparently some HN people think that MS is so sleazy that they will just go "GPL yoink" and start running/advertising/supporting Linux without notice or consent the benevolent dictator. That's projection.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#228

Post by kelvinjps10 »

nomel wrote: post #188
CSSer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, I'm confused. Was that supposed to be an insult?!

This is a very legitimate question: In the US, where is it not? Public buses aren't safe, clean, or timely. Where I am, it's 2.5 hours rather than a 26 minute commute by car. The only reason you ride one is usually if you are already in the proximity of your destination, especially if that destination is downtown. For all other cases, private or ride-share makes way more sense. We're talking buses here, not shuttles,…

In other countries most people use public transportation and small percentage uses car

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#229

Post by jnpnj »

esafak wrote: post #187
jnpnj wrote: post #122

I find admirable how every era was filled with fights on just about every detail. Keys included, layout, shape, meaning. And now nobody pays attention that any of this at all. Very strange and funny at the same time.

Did you not catch the debate about Tahoe's glassmorphism?

Not really, I knew it was radically strange in its philosophy.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#230

Post by RetroTechie »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #89

I find keyboards fascinating because they have many anachronistic elements and design flaws, yet nobody outside of elitist mechanical keyboard circles seems to be willing to fix them. Everybody seems to just think "whatever, gotta live with it." Why do they still have an extra large Caps Lock key in such a prominent position? What does ScrLk key on my keyboard do? Why is there an Ins key when practically every text e…

> yet nobody outside of elitist mechanical keyboard circles seems to be willing to fix them.

Mostly not to destroy people's muscle memory, I think.

People have gotten used to, and expect certain behaviour from OS+apps. Futz with that, and users become annoyed, frustrated, or ditch an otherwise fine piece of software.

In other words: history / inertia.

Post reply on HN