Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 713 posts

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#51

Post by roryirvine »

cedws wrote: post #33
everforward wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won’t work, we have literal piles of research showing that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent, and to an incredible degree for children. They tend to either not think of consequences, or have youthful hubris and be certain they won’t get caught (even when they have in the past, I got spanked numerous times for the same exact things). I would go so far as to bet it will have the opposite effect. N…

Assuming these sociological studies are robust (which they're likely not as sociological studies have poor reproducibility) am I also supposed to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears? Families have been destroyed by terrorism in the UK, by terrorists who have been given second and third chances. To link this back to the original topic: discipline of children is part of a wider topic of how as a society we discipli…

Corporal punishment was banned in the UK in 1998.

In the 28 years since, there have been 175 terrorist-related deaths. Compare that with the 28 years before, when there were 3,262 terrorist-related deaths.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#52

Post by lern_too_spel »

commandersaki wrote: post #17

I wonder how severe a caning in an educational institute compares to one administered by state justice.

Adult caning is done by trained professionals. https://transformativejusticecollective.org/2023/10/20/getti...

School caning is with a lighter stick and through clothing, so it will be less severe, but the reduction in severity will probably vary a lot with the person administering the punishment.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#54

Post by Ekaros »

oompydoompy74 wrote: post #15
noworriesnate wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pain is a highly evolved way of telling humans to change their behavior. Why would we choose not to use such an excellent tool, within reasonable boundaries? Also, do you think the victims of bullies have a pleasant experience? Being merciful to the bullies enables them and is cruel to their victims.

[flagged]

Yes. I think bullying should automatically lead to bully being shipped to suitable facility where they are rehabilited. It must be done to protect other children. Best way is to remove the perpetrator not the victim. Adults and evil monsters should stop excusing bullying with something like bad home conditions. If home conditions are bad remove them from that home. Or at least remove them from places where they can cause suffering to others.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#55

Post by yetihehe »

niemandhier wrote: post #36
yetihehe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good when all parents are able to host such party. I would say that in Poland, most of parents with a misbehaving kid are barely able to throw a party for their kid and several of his/her friends. Many times people complain about the cost of school supplies for their kids already.

I think the cost of doing this as well as the time you need to invest are what puts pressure on you. I’ll have to ask what would happen if you do not comply. The Danish are nice people, but they really do not like if you break the social rules, so I guess it would get intense verry fast.

> The Danish are nice people

Just like I thought. I'm sure your solution would work when majority are nice people. That won't work on people who are from "lower social circles". We still have a lot of them in Poland and don't know how to make them behave better, because trying to make them behave better typically results in defensiveness about their way of life and a lot of excuses about their circumstances. They only dig their heels and start being more aggressive.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#56

Post by 1718627440 »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #50
1718627440 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locking people in a room also isn't pleasant, yet we allow it, because we think it has a deterring effect. Hitting people with sticks or tear gas, forcing there limbs together with steel also isn't very nice. Neither is forcing people in a plane and sending them off into dangerous environments just because they happen to be born there.

Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation.

> Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that.

In my jurisdiction prison sentences and imprisonment for public protection are different things, and only the latter is to protect innocent people. It is also pretty rare. Most prison sentences are, because society 'thinks' the aspiring prisoner deserves it, not because the public needs to be protected. Also penalties also fulfill the desire of the society for vengeance.

I think, being locked in isolation or with very dangerous individuals can leave deeper scars than a short period of violence. It's also not, like people in general never have any injuries, so it's not the pain itself that is an uncommon experience, but more the knowledge of it being linked to your actions. People don't have traumas just because they walked through nettles, feel from their bicycle or broke their legs.

> And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation.

That's nice, but I think he still has an amount of accepted violence by the state, because the policy of 'I don't give a fuck, let the strongest do what he likes' doesn't actually lead to less violence.

I just want to point out, how it is not necessarily a black or white thing, I'm not arguing for child abuse.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#57

Post by maxglute »

everforward wrote: post #28
cedws wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After seeing with my own two eyes how soft touch policing and parenting leads to a shitty society for everyone I’m completely in favour of this. Singapore, Japan, among other Asian countries are safe and prosperous for a reason - if you do no wrong, you have nothing to fear. In London we recently had a swarm of youths raid supermarkets and shoplift. Most of them got off scot free. Even tenured criminals are getting o…

It won’t work, we have literal piles of research showing that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent, and to an incredible degree for children. They tend to either not think of consequences, or have youthful hubris and be certain they won’t get caught (even when they have in the past, I got spanked numerous times for the same exact things). I would go so far as to bet it will have the opposite effect. N…

Piles of western research. Eastern psych corpus suggest opposite. Well it's more nuanced, some combination of permissive / neglectful parenting styles. IIRC the rough TLDR is engaged tiger parents with mild CP vs hands off parents with no CP... guess who had better academic performance, social regulation etc. Something something kids find engaged parent with a little tough love = being cared for vs hands off = neglect. Anecdotal but you can see how this carries over in west between diaspora generations when the CP rates drop. East Asia is competitive, beating bad apples to be productive members of society due to entire layers of social cohesion/shame that is missing in west, hence why they can beat their way to high grades and low crime rates, but west generally can't, or at least not by 2nd diaspora generation. Of course I don't mean CP everyone, but CP tool for some kids (individual differences etc). Good argument for blanket condemning CP to prevent abuse, but at the end of the day, some would have benefitted from CP, which still preferable to silent treatment for many.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#58

Post by aeve890 »

lava_pidgeon wrote: post #40
jitler wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rehabilitation and figuring out why they are bullying is the correct response in a civilized society. Your so called “civilized societies” have continuously failed at this though. You can’t keep failing and then demand your method is the correct method.

How Germany or Denmark or Sweden failed?

>How Germany

Do you really need examples of Germany failing as a civilized society?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#59

Post by walletdrainer »

lava_pidgeon wrote: post #39
walletdrainer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago an older teenager tried to steal my phone on the street, I kicked the shit out of him. What else should I have done? Just let the kid take the next guys phone? If I’d called the police, they’d almost certainly have told me on the phone to let the shouting kid go. There would have been zero consequences for him, and possibly some for me. I genuinely did that kid a favour.

In Germany you can force somebody to stay until police arrives but unnecessary violence is forbidden

And what’d be the point? The police will not be interested in the would-be phone thief, calling them would be of negative value to society.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#60

Post by rvnx »

roryirvine wrote: post #51
cedws wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming these sociological studies are robust (which they're likely not as sociological studies have poor reproducibility) am I also supposed to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears? Families have been destroyed by terrorism in the UK, by terrorists who have been given second and third chances. To link this back to the original topic: discipline of children is part of a wider topic of how as a society we discipli…

Corporal punishment was banned in the UK in 1998. In the 28 years since, there have been 175 terrorist-related deaths. Compare that with the 28 years before, when there were 3,262 terrorist-related deaths.

How many terrorists had to be killed upfront in their country to reach that result ?
Post reply on HN