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Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

simonwillison.net

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Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#91

Claude often does things in more detail, and even better, than I would, in the first pass. But I don't understand how anybody stands comments generated by an LLM? It's seriously the thing that worries (and bothers) me the most. I almost never let unedited LLM comments pass. At a minimum. Most of the time, I use my own vibe-coded tool to run multiple GitHub-PR-review-style reviews, and send them off to the agent to ma…

The comments aren't an LLM thing, they're a Claude thing. Codex doesn't write those gross hyper-verbose comments.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#92
I feel like an outlier in all of this. But isn't this just more AI slop? How is this different from text generation or image generation?

Like many people I have used AI to generate crap I really don't care about. I need an image. Generate something like, whatever. Great hey a good looking image! No that's done I can do something I find more interesting to do.

But it's slop. The image does not fit the context. Its just off. And you can tell that no one really cared.

This isn't good.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#93

People in the future are going to wonder what the hell we were thinking, when 30 years down the line everything is a hot mess of billions of lines of code generated by LLMs that no human has read almost any of it and is no longer possible for anyone to maintain neither with nor without LLMs. And the LLM generated garbage will have drowned out all of the good quality code that ever existed and no one will be able to f…

If that is the case market forces would likely favor hand written code and all the slop will be forgotten (unless the slop works fine and is stable).

I don't think that's how money works. Enough people have poured enough money into this thing that the actual, measurable results/efficacy/ROI are of secondary importance (to put it mildly). At this point AI adoption is (at least sold as) a fait accompli.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#94
post #39

> If you can go from producing 200 lines of code a day to 2,000 lines of code a day, what else breaks? The entire software development lifecycle was, it turns out, designed around the idea that it takes a day to produce a few hundred lines of code. And now it doesn’t. It is so embarrassing that LOC is being used as a metric for engineering output.

I read somewhere that measuring software engineering output by LoC is like measuring aerospace engineering by pounds added to the plane and I thought that was an apt comparison.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally pro "llm assisted coding" or whatever you want to call it. But I do somethings think about the Butlerian Jihad from Dune. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune:_The_Butlerian_Jihad

If you like sci-fi takes on software systems, check out Vernor Vinge "A Fire upon the deep" and sequels. I recall ship systems software is something like all the code humanity has ever written, plus centuries of LLM churn. One of the protagonists is a space faring software developer particularly good with legacy code. We are used to thinking about software like in the article, a program that runs deterministically in…

Interesting, I kinda do this. Sometimes when an LLM solves a problem for me, I have it write code so that I can reuse that exact same approach deterministically(and I line by line check it). Now I have about a dozen CLI commands that the LLM can use and I'm reasonably (although not 100%) sure I'll get an expected outcome. Really helpful with debugging via steam pipe and connecting to read replicas.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#97
Instead of "vibe coding" by asking the AI to design and write code, I'm having it refine my own designs, and write code under strict supervision and guidance, that I carefully review and iterate on.

I took a rock carving course in school that really enlightened me about software engineering, and it still applies today, especially to AI. You can't just decide what you want to carve, hold the chisel in just the right spot, and whack it with a hammer just perfectly so all the rock you want falls away leaving a perfect statue behind.

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." -Michelangelo

It's a long drawn out iterative process of making millions of tiny little chips, and letting the statue inside find its way out, in its natural form, instead of trying to impose a pre-determined form onto it.

Vibe coding is hoping your first whack of the hammer is going to make a good statue, then not even looking at the statue before shipping it!

But AI assisted conscientious coding (or agentic engineering as Simon calls it) is the opposite of that, where you chip away quickly and relentlessly, but you still have to carefully control where you chisel and what you carve away, and have an idea in your mind what you want before you start.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#98
post #39

> If you can go from producing 200 lines of code a day to 2,000 lines of code a day, what else breaks? The entire software development lifecycle was, it turns out, designed around the idea that it takes a day to produce a few hundred lines of code. And now it doesn’t. It is so embarrassing that LOC is being used as a metric for engineering output.

He's not using LOC as a metric, he's making an observation about the impact of a change in the typical volume of LOC.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#99
post #39

> If you can go from producing 200 lines of code a day to 2,000 lines of code a day, what else breaks? The entire software development lifecycle was, it turns out, designed around the idea that it takes a day to produce a few hundred lines of code. And now it doesn’t. It is so embarrassing that LOC is being used as a metric for engineering output.

LOC is useful here not because it's a metric for output but because it's a metric for _understandability_. Reviewing 200 lines is a very different workload than reviewing 2000.

It’s still a bad metric.

I have worked with code where 1000s of lines are very straightforward and linear.

I’ve worked on code where 100 lines is crucial and very domain specific. It can be exceptionally clean and well-commented and it still takes days to unpack.

The skills and effort required to review and understand those situations are quite different.

One is like distance driving a boring highway in the Midwest: don’t get drowsy, avoid veering into the indistinguishable corn fields, and you’ll get there. The other is like navigating a narrow mountain road in a thunderstorm: you’re 100% engaged and you might still tumble or get hit by lightning.

Re: Vibe coding and agentic engineering are getting closer than I'd like

#100
post #89
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes me want to just give up programming forever and never use a computer again. LLMs aren’t the first thing to come along and change how people develop applications. You had the rise of frameworks like Django, Rails, etc. Also the rise of SPAs. And also the rise of JS as a frontend+backend language. In a 3-5 yeats we’ll have adapted to the new norm like we have in the past

Or, it could be like asbestos and the immediate benefits are just too appealing to listen to arguments of skeptical naysayers about some vaguely defined problems that are decades away, if they even happen. I use AI tools daily (because they feel like they're helping me ) but it's not exactly hard to imagine scenarios where an explosion of slop piling up plus harm to learning by outsourcing all thinking results in sys…

> Or, it could be like asbestos

If it is, the fall out will be way worse than if AI ends up living up to (reasonable) expectations.

If it doesn’t, we are going to see over a trillion dollars of capital leave the tech sector, which I think will have worse impacts on the livelihood of tech workers than if AI ends up panning out.

This is something the naysayers need to grapple with. We’ve crossed a line where this tech needs to work simply because of the amount of money depending on that fact.

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