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Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

reflex.dev

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Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#181
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that by far the most useful websites as a programmer are also the ones most resistant to AI. This would be a huge loss for anyone vision impaired

What sorts of sites are you thinking of? To me, “most useful to a programmer” evokes docs and blogs and github issues and forum posts. I suppose some forums might be AI-resistant (login wall), but the others are trivially AI accessible.

Plenty of Linux-y websites use Anubis. Arch Wiki and IIRC some other distros too.

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#182
post #163

Great guidance hidden in here for making it expensive for agents to navigate your website. Move elements on screen as the mouse moves, force natural mouse movement to make the UI work, change the button labels in the JS to be randomly named every visit, force scrolling to the bottom of the screen to check for hidden extra tasks... Hang on, that sounds like common corporate SaaS apps.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

My friend at a faang was talking about the "massive overhauls to make everything ready for ai". I asked for an example. He said "basically just documenting the shit out of everything"

I guess that just never occurred to anybody before.

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#183

Great guidance hidden in here for making it expensive for agents to navigate your website. Move elements on screen as the mouse moves, force natural mouse movement to make the UI work, change the button labels in the JS to be randomly named every visit, force scrolling to the bottom of the screen to check for hidden extra tasks... Hang on, that sounds like common corporate SaaS apps.

The trick is that you make it something that humans want to do. Using [0] as an example, the interactive elements move, with context-dependent environment interactions.

[0] https://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/papers/p152-chao.pdf

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#184
post #182
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

My friend at a faang was talking about the "massive overhauls to make everything ready for ai". I asked for an example. He said "basically just documenting the shit out of everything" I guess that just never occurred to anybody before.

AI might actually RTFM

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#185
post #182
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

My friend at a faang was talking about the "massive overhauls to make everything ready for ai". I asked for an example. He said "basically just documenting the shit out of everything" I guess that just never occurred to anybody before.

There was a recent effort at work to make it possible for agents to provide up-to-date help on how to do various admin/setup tasks. A very sensible goal: We already have lots of documentation, the problem is that it's scattered everywhere and mostly out of date. Turns out the new solution amounted to someone manually going through it all and painstakingly preparing some Markdown files for consumption by said agent.

Somebody pointed out that those Markdown files might be helpful for people to read directly. Bit of an Emperor's new clothes moment. (I wanted to slap a : rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: reaction on it, but sadly it turns out I'm actually too chickenshit to do that in today's job market.)

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#186
post #163

Great guidance hidden in here for making it expensive for agents to navigate your website. Move elements on screen as the mouse moves, force natural mouse movement to make the UI work, change the button labels in the JS to be randomly named every visit, force scrolling to the bottom of the screen to check for hidden extra tasks... Hang on, that sounds like common corporate SaaS apps.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

> It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI.

> It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive it will benefit us personally rather than some abstract future human.

I don't think that's the reason.

I think it's because they take time, and few people were willing to put in time for "maybe it'll make writing the actual code faster" gains when the code was going to take a few times longer to write itself.

You also can get faster feedback to iterate on your spec now, which improves the probability of it helping future-you.

So combine that with the fact that the llms are more likely to get lost if you don't spec stuff in advance, and the value of up-front work is higher (whereas a human is more likely to land on the right track, just more slowly than otherwise, making the value harder to quantify).

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#187
post #163

Great guidance hidden in here for making it expensive for agents to navigate your website. Move elements on screen as the mouse moves, force natural mouse movement to make the UI work, change the button labels in the JS to be randomly named every visit, force scrolling to the bottom of the screen to check for hidden extra tasks... Hang on, that sounds like common corporate SaaS apps.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

I always knew the dev world leaned more toward interesting technical challenges and interoperability than maximizing the benefit to humanity- it’s why I switched to design. However, I didn’t realize the intensity of that preference until the entire industry got ridiculously AI-pilled.

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sorts of sites are you thinking of? To me, “most useful to a programmer” evokes docs and blogs and github issues and forum posts. I suppose some forums might be AI-resistant (login wall), but the others are trivially AI accessible.

Plenty of Linux-y websites use Anubis. Arch Wiki and IIRC some other distros too.

That's less a value judgment, more a necessary evil due to the plethora of bad actors out there. I doubt it will get in the way of a local model used in a reasonable manner.

Most wikis you can mirror locally if you really need to hammer them.

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#189
post #182
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really weird, I'm seeing across the board that people who never believed in them before are suddenly all into good software eng practices (starting with writing a spec) because of AI. It's kind of fascinating that we never were willing to do these things for humans but now that AI needs it ... we are all in. A bit depressing in the sense that I think mostly the reason we happy to do it for AI is that we perceive…

My friend at a faang was talking about the "massive overhauls to make everything ready for ai". I asked for an example. He said "basically just documenting the shit out of everything" I guess that just never occurred to anybody before.

The CEO of Uber made the same comment on Diary of a CEO recently. I think it was for their customer service team if I'm not mistaken, they threw their existing docs at an LLM and it was all over the place because policies were poorly documented and defined. The team is now documenting everything from scratch, focusing on outcomes rather than process - TBD if it works out.

Re: Computer Use is 45x more expensive than structured APIs

#190
We gave up on structured APIs 20+ years ago when JSON RPC largely replaced XML REST. You can do REST in many different formats, it mainly just needs to be structured data and self-discoverable.

Had we not made that wrong turn, LLMs and humans would have a much easier time reasoning about APIs they don't directly control.

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