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Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

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Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#31

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

mrob wrote: post #9
LatencyKills wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if it's windowed then it should be impossible. I worked on several apps for the visually impaired that automatically move the mouse cursor to different UI elements in the front-most application, regardless of the window state. It’s a good reminder that “impossible” often just means “I haven’t accounted for that use case yet.”

If it's part of the OS's standard accessibility framework then it's acceptable. The important point is that applications shouldn't be able to arbitrarily move the mouse in situations when it's unexpected.

Coming from Linux, the accessibility framework is just another series of programs. My main a11y program is a tiny little binary that uses the keyboard to move the mouse around at will; I certainly don't want the system to try and restrict that.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#32

Post by piekvorst »

I work in a text editor that relies on mouse warping heavily. It doesn’t feel wrong. The opposite is true, it makes otherwise mundane tasks fast. It takes the pointer to the newly created windows (if you have a dozen of windows, that matters), it makes it easier to locate currently selected text (again, having a dozen of windows makes it necessary) and get to the next occurrence, to shove a window together with the pointer so that you don’t lose the control over it, and more. Sometimes it even takes the cursor back after a short temporary action.

I truly miss this level of detail in the outside world. It feels as if you’re resizing a window but the mouse pointer doesn’t move.

The Lightroom example is nowhere close to that. Looks like a thoughtless optimization.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#33

Post by ano-ther »

simoncion wrote: post #19
ano-ther wrote: post #7

Windows has a “snap to default button“ setting which does the same. Saves you a bit of movement on large screens, but since it jumps it doesn’t lead the eyes which makes is disorienting.

> ...but since it jumps it doesn’t lead the eyes which makes is disorienting. What happens when you enable "mouse pointer trails"? Or is that a feature that died like a decade or two after manufacturers stopped using the extremely slow LCDs that made use of the feature all but mandatory on machines that used them?

That could actually make it work -- but I just tested and, sadly, the cursor still gets teleported without a trace.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#34

Post by maebert »

Tangentially related: one of my all-time favourite neuroscience papers by Iriki et al. [1] showed that the mouse pointer becomes part of the body schema in a real, measurable way.

Basically there are neurons whose receptive field (ie the subset of the outside world that causes the neuron to fire) is "everything a monkey can reach". Flash a light in that area, that neuron fires, flash it beyond that area, neuron stays silent.

Now if you give the monkey a rake, the neuron's receptive field immediately grows to encompass the space it can now reach with the rake too: the rake becomes part of the body schema, not part of the outside world [2].

But if the rake instead is just a stick but it controls a mouse cursor on the screen, the _area of the screen_ the monkey can interact with with the cursor becomes part of the receptive field of that neuron too. That suggests that the cursor itself becomes part of the body schema.

TL;DR don't mess with people's mouse cursors, it's like cutting their limbs off.

[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15588812/ [2]: A wild Heidegger appears and talks about Vorhandensein and Zuhandensein.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#35

Post by piekvorst »

xg15 wrote: post #14

From the counter argument: > as a matter of fact, there is something really interesting about a mouse pointer feeling less like a deity floating above it all, and more like a regular in-game actor. My counter-counter argument would be a general principle for UX designers: Are you designing a game or a tool? If you're designing a tool, don't put cutscenes in your software. I think games are special, because their expl…

> often only I know the context of that task

This doesn’t account for cases where the system is semi-automatic, such as a tiling window manager (you don’t set all the dimensions manually). If the automatic part is to stay at all, it should make certain assumptions for the user.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#36

Post by piekvorst »

mrob wrote: post #9
LatencyKills wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if it's windowed then it should be impossible. I worked on several apps for the visually impaired that automatically move the mouse cursor to different UI elements in the front-most application, regardless of the window state. It’s a good reminder that “impossible” often just means “I haven’t accounted for that use case yet.”

If it's part of the OS's standard accessibility framework then it's acceptable. The important point is that applications shouldn't be able to arbitrarily move the mouse in situations when it's unexpected.

You are arguing for uniformity. It does make a lot of sense: the global UI makes a considerable effort to build a single perfect UI, but that can only work if the apps actually make use of it.

But why shouldn’t the global UI itself make use of mouse warping?

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#37

Post by piekvorst »

maebert wrote: post #34

Tangentially related: one of my all-time favourite neuroscience papers by Iriki et al. [1] showed that the mouse pointer becomes part of the body schema in a real, measurable way. Basically there are neurons whose receptive field (ie the subset of the outside world that causes the neuron to fire) is "everything a monkey can reach". Flash a light in that area, that neuron fires, flash it beyond that area, neuron stays…

> TL;DR don't mess with people's mouse cursors, it's like cutting their limbs off.

“Don’t mess” is a very broad range that includes things like removing the mouse cursor at nine PM. Of course, no one should do that.

But a narrower conclusion “let the mouse warp at certain predictable cases” doesn’t contradict your thesis.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#38

Post by piekvorst »

ano-ther wrote: post #7

Windows has a “snap to default button“ setting which does the same. Saves you a bit of movement on large screens, but since it jumps it doesn’t lead the eyes which makes is disorienting.

I’ve never heard of that feature in Windows! Unfortunately, that means I can’t judge it.

But I have used mouse warping in other environments and I’ve never been caused disoriented. It never occurred to me that such a problem is possible. In general, it seems like this problem can be avoided by 1) moving the mouse only to changed states of the screen, 2) only if they’re small enough to be easily observable, and 3) only for repetitive tasks.

Re: Mouse Pointer as a Mere Mortal

#39

Post by csbrooks »

xg15 wrote: post #14

From the counter argument: > as a matter of fact, there is something really interesting about a mouse pointer feeling less like a deity floating above it all, and more like a regular in-game actor. My counter-counter argument would be a general principle for UX designers: Are you designing a game or a tool? If you're designing a tool, don't put cutscenes in your software. I think games are special, because their expl…

Even in the context of game development, if you don't provide a "skip cutscene" interaction, some players get very upset. The desire to tell a story can be at odds with the player's desire for control, even there.
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