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Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

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Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#321
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what we've shed are more things like chairing a committee for the VFW, selling snacks at little league games, or being active in a lowers voice, looks over shoulder union. These are things that would traditionally take up the social slack left by not punching a clock every day, and we've eliminated them systematically to make room for more marketized activities. Today's retirees are "richer" than their parent…

Most unions pay their elected officers and administrative staff. Members might volunteer for some activities but the roles that come with a significant time commitment are jobs like any other. VFW membership has declined because even with continuous wars for decades, the end of conscription has meant a lot fewer veterans. And many VFW halls functioned more like dive bars than anything else: nothing wrong with that, b…

The VFW is just a stand-in for any community "lodge" type organization, all of which have been in decline for decades. Yes, this is somewhat about the "cool" factor -- young people largely don't want to be seen in a Moose Lodge, Elk Lodge, Lions Club, Masonic Temple, etc., and these organizations typically have backwards views on female membership, have racist histories (or presents), etc. -- but the fact remains that, instead of doing this community-oriented thing, people are doing other, market-oriented things. Instead of playing darts at the American Legion, they are paying to go to an escape room, or even just staying home and gaming or shopping on TikTok. Even country club membership is in decline, so this isn't only a working class phenomenon.

I'm not as sure what point you're making about union staff. Surely there has been paid union staff for decades -- no real change there AFAIK -- and being "active" in the union doesn't mean you are doing paid staff work (though part time positions for retirees aren't that uncommon). There's a lot of stuff going in on a truly active union local that is definitely not paid work: being on the committee that builds the 4th of July parade float, organizing the games for the summer member picnic, organizing a group to go work in union colors at a Habitat for Humanity build, representing the local at regional or national union conferences, putting together care packages for sick members and sending groups to visit with shut-in retirees. You're right that, sadly, few locals are this active anymore, but it was once common.

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#322

The problem isn't retirement per se, it is that people don't have things to occupy themselves with. They retire and they vegetate. I worked with a lady that was in her 70s who was deathly afraid of retiring because she didn't have anything to do. That's beyond depressing to me, to be incapable of even conceiving of doing something that doesn't involve going to a job. We have created people that never develop as human…

Oh yes, absolutely. For hundreds of thousands of years, every elderly person had something like 8 children, 40 grandchildren and was busy with them.

Now, people fill this time with TV, because if they have kids, they live 5000 km away.

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they would be making projects, business ventures, or volunteering This is not what actually happens in practice. There is no sudden outbreak of productive activity because people have more free time. If this was going to occur there would be mountains of empirical evidence for it by now because this situation isn't rare. I know many people with a lot of free time. In the vast majority of cases, people spend their f…

> I know many people with a lot of free time. In the vast majority of cases, people spend their free time in almost exactly the same way they spent their free time when they had less of it. Binging on social media, television, or games? Now they just do more of it for longer. The people that volunteer more were already doing it, and they are in the small minority. You lock people for decades in the madhouse which lea…

More than 10% of 18-25 year olds are considered NEETs. They haven't experienced anything but sitting at school for 25 hours a week with zero responsibilities. Yet none of them do anything useful with their free time. Funnily, this affects both poor and rich kids equally

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, statistically it's exactly what happens. People have more initiative and produce meaningful outcomes when they own part of their time. You do need to account for what isn't measured in capital. Off the top of my head: - Caretaking - Community and organization - Art ventures - Political involvement All of which are meaningful parts of as functioning society, but almost invisible to the capitalistic eye. Some of th…

That's just what you claim.

Me and 50 years of trials and studies

> The scheme also gave some participants “the possibility to try and live their dreams”, Blomberg-Kroll said. “Freelancers and artists and entrepreneurs had more positive views on the effects of the basic income, which some felt had created opportunities for them to start businesses.”

It also encouraged some participants to get more involved in society, by undertaking voluntary work, for example. “Some found the guaranteed income increased the possibility for them to do things like providing informal care for their family or their neighbours,” said one of the researchers, Christian Kroll.

- https://weall.org/resource/finland-universal-basic-income-pi...

> Involvement in the Mincome project didn’t cause a significant labour force reduction in Dauphin, as some critics of the program feared. The program’s approach to reducing payments based on income meant that it was better for participants to remain working as opposed to leaving the work force. Most participants continued to work.

Two notable groups of people did use Mincome to stay out of the work force. New mothers chose to stay at home longer with their babies and teenaged boys stayed in school instead of dropping out before Grade 12 to help support their families. The opportunity for students to stay in school was reflected in the higher graduation numbers and university enrollments seen during the experiment.

- https://humanrights.ca/story/manitobas-mincome-experiment

> When asked about the ease of combining paid work with care responsibilities, the average score increased from 2.76 to 3.58 on a 1 (‘very difficult’) to 5 (‘very easy’) scale. 60% of employees reported that balancing care responsibilities had become easier. Similarly, the experience of balancing employment with social life benefited, with an average reported increase from 2.9 to 3.78 (again with 1 as ‘very difficult’, and 5 as ‘very easy’).

- UK's 2023 four-day pilot study (page 39) https://autonomy.work/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/The-results...

> Researchers said this was partly due to remote working but there were other signs that people were more environmentally conscious. Time spent on household recycling, walking and cycling and buying eco-friendly products saw “a small but significant” increase.

- World Economic Forum on 4-day weeks https://www.weforum.org/stories/2023/10/surprising-benefits-...

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people who were injured to the point where they couldn't "work" anymore were still cared for by their community.

I mean, that just isn't true. There are amazon tribes today where they just send them down the river to die... your ideas are a disney-fied version of a false past that never existed.

Yes, humanity is full of various societies that do things differently. These ideas aren't disney-fied - they're just accurate representations of the fact that people care for each other, most of the time.

I appreciate your anecdote, but here's a few counter-examples:

- Neanderthals took care of their elderly: https://theconversation.com/neanderthals-cared-for-each-othe...

- Neanderthals took care of a child that likely had a developmental condition: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adn9310

- other Hominids also did this at some point in the last few million years: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/deformed-...

- 2500 year old woman had a jaw prosthetic made: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mummified-skull-reveals-iron...

- 15k years ago, someone with a broken femur was cared for well enough to heal: https://www.forbes.com/sites/remyblumenfeld/2020/03/21/how-a...

- Neanderthals pre-chewed food or provided soft foods for someone who lost their teeth: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/care-worn-fossils

- 4000 years ago, a man who was almost certainly a quadraplegic was still being cared for: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/8788963...

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know many people with a lot of free time. In the vast majority of cases, people spend their free time in almost exactly the same way they spent their free time when they had less of it. Binging on social media, television, or games? Now they just do more of it for longer. The people that volunteer more were already doing it, and they are in the small minority. You lock people for decades in the madhouse which lea…

More than 10% of 18-25 year olds are considered NEETs. They haven't experienced anything but sitting at school for 25 hours a week with zero responsibilities. Yet none of them do anything useful with their free time. Funnily, this affects both poor and rich kids equally

> More than 10% of 18-25 year olds are considered NEETs. They haven't experienced anything but sitting at school for 25 hours a week with zero responsibilities.

Being dumped by absent parents and having lack of pointers/goals in life is not

> raised to be empowered by creation and creativity, having generous allowances to experiment and not burdened with work or brain rot.

in my book.

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#327
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's tons of people over here taking 3 or 4 weeks contiguous, especially if they have children. That is in addition to other vacations around christmas etc. It's definitely not 5 separate weeks. I don't think there's a lot of things that one could do in 5 weeks, but where 4 weeks would be too short.

Tons? Hyperbole? Are they teachers or something? That amount of leave in one go is basically unheard of, with the exception of maternity leave I don't know anyone who's been on leave for more than 3 weeks as a single block. This is also taking from that same 5 week leave bucket people have available per annum, if they're taking 4 weeks then they have 5 days to last the remainder of the year. Not that crazy, but I hav…

I don't know if this is a Norway exclusive thing or if some other countries have similar laws aswell, but we have the right to take three continuous weeks of vacation during summer. You don't have to take the continuous weeks, but in my experience most people do

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#328

I think employment may set us up for rapid cognitive decline when we finally become unemployed. As in, working 40+ hours a week makes us over-value "vegging out", which sets us up for failure post-employment.

Interesting. As soon as work is done I'm either outside walking, in the garden or workshop etc. I did a PhD which actually did consume my whole life until I finished it. Every job I've had since then seems so easy in comparison. I'm never "vegging out".

And for everyone like you I suspect there are a thousand who leave work exhausted and can't wait to drink a beer, and watch tv.

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people go from work to nothing on retirement is because work fills up the nearly all of the productive hours of a person's life. If it were to take, let's say 4 days, or six hours a day, people would be so bored, they would be making projects, business ventures, or volunteering. And then on retirement, people would still have their hobbies and passion projects they had been working on their entire life. Th…

> they would be making projects, business ventures, or volunteering This is not what actually happens in practice. There is no sudden outbreak of productive activity because people have more free time. If this was going to occur there would be mountains of empirical evidence for it by now because this situation isn't rare. I know many people with a lot of free time. In the vast majority of cases, people spend their f…

There are both groups. Some people are busy now and will remain busy. Others have no hobbies, and will continue to have none.

Which is to say figure out something you can do in your free time so when you have more it can fill that time. Even if it is only a few minutes per week that you can do something. There are a lot of options. Volunteer, build wooden boxes, paint pictures: there are many great options. The point isn't to be productive or useful (though volunteering is and I recommend it for at least some of your free time), it is to have something to do with your time.

Re: Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the statement is so bad with a pattern of "because most won't, then all won't", which commonly used during birth rate issues too. It's either ignorant or malicious with hidden agenda behind. Giving employees 1 week of free time? That's nothing, and nothing will change too as a result. Give them a whole month of free time? I bet they will make some small, short term projects, even doing hobbies like gaming, fishi…

> Giving employees 1 week of free time? That's nothing, and nothing will change too as a result. Give them a whole month of free time? I bet they will make some small, short term projects, even doing hobbies like gaming, fishing, cooking or golfing where it wasn't available before. *confused in European, again* Hey, if only there was an entire continent of hundreds of millions of people who typically have 5 weeks of…

I'm not sure about other countries in europe but in Germany your employer can and will try to prevent you from starting a company. Some are more lenient and don't care if it's another industry, but same? Usually that is not going to happen.

So the cheapest and safest way to open a company is closed to a lot of employees, even with UBI.

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