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'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

theguardian.com

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Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#161

Post by selimthegrim »

Leonard_of_Q wrote: post #148
ortusdux wrote: post #7

Miami too. The city is build on porous limestone. No amount of levees, seawalls, or dams will save it.

Put dikes around it, make channels to collect the seepage, pump water out of channels over the dikes into the sea. Problem solved in the same way the Netherlands has been solving this problem for many centuries. The pumps can run on solar power with some diesel backups for when the sun doesn't co-operate. As long as the system is kept in good shape and the channels are kept open Miami can lie several meters under sea…

The problem is saltwater intrusion into the drinking water table - a problem New Orleans only has one when it comes up the Mississippi river - Miami is a whole different level

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#162

Post by fmobus »

neonstatic wrote: post #85
fsckboy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> but they won't Then they will look for someone to blame. The usual scape goats are the government and society.

You talk about "blame". Were they the ones that made the decisions causing the current ecological disaster?

Society fucked up, and that fuck up is gonna affect a lot of people who are not able to move out. Some sort of bailout will be needed.

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#163

Post by Nasrudith »

danaris wrote: post #149
rayiner wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's an emotional obsession with small percentages of the population that makes it impossible to discuss realistic solutions to problems that affect everyone. New Orleans is going to be underwater. That problem won't just affect poor people, it will affect everyone. So the first order of business is to encourage anyone who can do so to leave New Orleans to go somewhere that isn't underwater. That's the policy tha…

> it's an emotional obsession with small percentages of the population Ah, right: it's a small percentage of the population, so we should just let them die, "and decrease the surplus population", right? This kind of callousness is one of the biggest problem with the tech industry today. We learned to think in numbers, and some of us never learned to think about the people behind those numbers. Yes, there are some kin…

You're demonstrating the point I'm afraid. Rather than think of anything which can help 90%, you obsess on calling the people who want to save 90% of the people evil instead of thinking of anything to reduce the 10% further.

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#164

Post by snowpid »

TitaRusell wrote: post #89
kjellsbells wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a museum in New Orleans that has a Katrina display and it turns out that they did indeed call in Dutch experts to advise them. The Dutch gave them sensible ideas like building low elevation parks that could flood without issue and hold lots of water, instead of concrete spillways and drainage that just moves water fast until it fails catastrophically when inundated. Louisiana being Louisiana, it was all ignor…

The reality is that New Orleans is simply not important enough. Even the biggest ultra conservative GOP voting redneck will have to admit that America can't survive without NYC which is why it will get it's seawall.

This is very fascinating from a cultural viewpoint. Some cities in Europe are important just for the history and not economy like Venice, or lesser extent Rome. When the Russian attack started, people moaned about the old buildings and the culture in Kyiv. (Ofcourse the attack itself was inmoral).

What I get is New Orleans has an unique culture and history. Most people in the US dont think it is worth to preserve?

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#165

Post by 2ndorderthought »

AuthAuth wrote: post #88
Rebelgecko wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would someone buy buy a house if they think it's literally going to be underwater soon?

You say this but there are still a lot of sales for houses in these areas

Keep an eye on the sales number before and after this article drops. Something tells me it will not be going up.

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#166

Post by Kim_Bruning »

HWR_14 wrote: post #135
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder Type 1 is often an island situated below sea level. For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevopolder . Island. Surrounded by open water because that's actually a good idea. Below sea level. 400 000 inhabitants. 2 cities, major agriculture, minor airport. Ever wanted to grab dinner on the sea floor? Visit Almere Center. Though lots of people find it to be a bit boring in pers…

The Jones act doesn't prohibit anything about bringing ships into the US to construct things. The closest reason I can think of you thinking that is it allows injured sailors to sue for damages. Maybe that equipment leads to a huge number of injuries?

The cabotage provision of Jones act says a foreign (built) vessel is not allowed to move stuff between two points within US waters https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/46/55102 . There's also actually a separate dredge act too (now here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/46/55109) .

So a crane like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvicq-kvVbw ; it picks thing up and sets thing back down. In US waters? Verboten ("nee meneer, helaas verboden", in this case). Sure there's workarounds with barges sometimes; but it gets silly.

Or this rather large 'bulldozer' (a trailing suction hopper dredger) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhysyOJHY8A . Move mud from spot where it's unwanted to spot where it's needed. Operates in coastal/river areas. Fixes dunes, replenishes beaches, creates walls, places landfill; all at scale. Builds things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_International_Airport, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasvlakte_2 .

Jones act and more specifically dredge act even: you're moving stuff inside US territorial waters.

Both cases it's not (or barely) made in the US, and you can't hire the big crews from elsewhere. There's no competition, and this has resulted in no incentive to learn, keep up or even try.

NB Heritage foundation on some of this: https://www.heritage.org/trade/commentary/113-year-old-law-h...

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#167

Post by alex43578 »

ykonstant wrote: post #159
alex43578 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billions have been spent rebuilding New Orleans once. Per the article, there's no realistic way to save New Orleans going forward. It's sad, it's unfortunate, it's reality. The poor and homeless of Louisiana are already receiving massive benefits: 4th in the country for the share of households on welfare, 18% of the population on food stamps, $14B+ in FY23 of federal dollars went to welfare/TANF/Medicaid/etc.

Damn, those poor and homeless are really living it up.

Is the solution to further mortgage working and contributing citizens' futures via our exploding national debt, just to throw more cash at them? California spends $40K+ a year, per homeless person, but saw the homeless population grow and the problem get worse.

For welfare, consider that a single parent with two school-age children who earns $11,000 annually from part-time work ends up qualifying for $64,128 in cash, aid, and benefits.

The same family earning $64,128 by actually working wouldn’t be eligible for any of these welfare benefits in four-fifths of the states.

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#168

Post by estearum »

incompatible wrote: post #118
estearum wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes with the help of US taxpayers. https://www.floodsmart.gov/

Funny, I thought the USA was paranoid about this kind of socialism. I guess they are on the hook for some big and inevitable payouts.

USA loves socialism in most forms that benefit landowners

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#169

Post by estearum »

misiti3780 wrote: post #102
estearum wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... "those in the know" are the actuaries and if you were to take away the subsidies provided for homeowners and developers to deny basic mathematical facts, the entire area would be totally unbuildable already.

i work in insure tech, in the E&S space, which is where all of the flood and wind polices gets placed. Actuaries have nothing to do with it --- the cost of hurricane insurance comes from Moody's RMS and Verisk AIR, the only two CAT models the carriers and re-insurance companies use. Actuaries price the non-cat risk.

This is mostly a pedantic point that it's not actuaries doing the pricing, but a different set of risk analysts using a different suite of tools, right?

Re: 'Point of no return': New Orleans relocation must start now due to sea level

#170

Post by estearum »

notabotiswear wrote: post #134
estearum wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way too many Americans either don't know or disbelieve that a substantial chunk of the body politic, and now our elected and military leaders, actually literally believe this type of stuff. IMO any eschatological beliefs whatsoever should be 100% universally disqualifying for any political or military position, no matter what book title or special ancient zombie character they're filed under.

“Leaders” who believe this kind of stuff don’t end up running developed states. It’s the leaders who know how to make use of morons who believe this kinda stuff who do.

Eh, no. Trump of course has zero actual ideology, but there's pretty solid reason to believe e.g. Hegseth and Mike Johnson actually believe this type of stuff.
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