Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Agentic Coding Is a Trap

larsfaye.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 403 posts

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#351

Post by WorldMaker »

dilyevsky wrote: post #350
WorldMaker wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True innovation is doing something new that has never been seen before. Even if you are doing it in a stable language that's just a stable poetry form (rhyme and meter and formatting), the real magic is the content of the poetry, and the real beauty of code is when the poetry reads well to both audiences, the compiler and the next maintainer, on multiple levels, the literal and the metaphorical. LLMs can't reach the…

What you're describing is not innovation in the business sense but some kind of experimental art. Software engineering is not art as the name suggests - it's a craft, even though there's a self-expression component to it.

I think we have different definitions of what a craft is. My boundary between art and craft is a lot looser, for instance. The way I see it there is craft to the best art and there is art embedded in the best craft. I think you are right that companies seem to ignore both the art and craft of software engineering and long wish the process were a predictable industrial machine much more than an art or a craft. But I will absolutely disagree with you that just because companies desire it to be an industrial process doesn't mean it isn't my job to understand the art of software design and how that influences the crafting of software.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#352

Post by larsfaye »

gerdesj wrote: post #21
ex-aws-dude wrote: post #9

The thing is the code quality is still ultimately up to you Nothing stopping you from iterating with the agent till the code is the exact same quality that you yourself would write

"... iterating with the agent till the code is the exact same quality that you yourself would write" I don't want my code quality, I want AGI code quality - that's what I was promised and jetpacks and flying cars too!

Yeah, I can't help but chuckle when people say "Well, humans make mistakes, too".

That's what we're spending 7+ TRILLION dollars, destroying ecosystems to build datacenters, and ruining society's social contract on truth and employment for? To build something that produces the average quality of a human, all while making the same types of mistakes along the way?

Sounds like a shit deal, really.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#353

Post by illiac786 »

I find the author shows a lot of assurance in stating that assembler coders didn’t felt their skill atrophying when going to fortran. I am pretty certain that, apart from the writing style, the exact same complaints where made at the time.

I would add that no one learns assembler anymore – and that’s a problem.

It will be the same with coding – people that know how to code will become very very valuable. I don’t think they will disappear hence.

I don’t disagree on AI being a massive revolution though, but maybe not so much in software development. Education and most of all, the art, are the most impacted in my view.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#354

Post by echelon »

rimliu wrote: post #327
echelon wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, no one gets smarter by outsourcing thinking. Thinking is happening at a higher level. Humans are adepts at abstraction, and they are always capable of looking under the hood when needed. We've never had so much societal capability as now. And that's only going to accelerate. Smart people will use these tools effectively. Don't be so bearish on human ingenuity. Think of these tools as bullshit / busy work remo…

abstraction needs to be built on something. If there is little in your brain, there is little you can do with it.

I think everyone's just citing platitudes at this point.

The earth will move on. Smart people will continue to exist. I'll bet on the smart people.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#356

Post by anon-3988 »

danenania wrote: post #323
intrinsicallee wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of space between broken and high quality that won't necessitate any business letting people "learn" on the job.

That’s also true without AI. Engineers want more time to polish and businesses want to ship the 80/20 solution that’s good enough to sell. There's always going to be a tension there regardless of tools.

Don't you see the problem? Now engineers literally do not have any leverage. Did the model make it work? Yes? Then ship it, what are we waiting around for?

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#357

Post by iusadfkjasdf »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

[dead]

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#358

Post by danenania »

anon-3988 wrote: post #356
danenania wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also true without AI. Engineers want more time to polish and businesses want to ship the 80/20 solution that’s good enough to sell. There's always going to be a tension there regardless of tools.

Don't you see the problem? Now engineers literally do not have any leverage. Did the model make it work? Yes? Then ship it, what are we waiting around for?

That sounds pretty much the same as it’s always been? It used to be: “Does the happy path work? Then ship it! There’s no time to make it robust or clean up tech debt.”

Now there actually is time to make things robust if you learn how to do it.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#359

Post by marcus_holmes »

bitwize wrote: post #134
marcus_holmes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they solve this for mechanical engineering? Or is it an ongoing problem?

I don't know if they've addressed it. But ~15 years ago, my father was mentoring some college students and noticed that while they had been taught to machine a block (i.e., the rudiments of machining), they had no idea how to design appropriate tolerances for e.g., a gear because they hadn't ever made anything that complicated. So it was an issue back then. Presumably these details are learned on the job through tria…

A mate of mine was trained as a mechanical engineer and part of his training was to hand-file a chunk of steel to a cube exactly 2cm x 2cm, to within 1/10mm tolerance, every side exactly square. He said it was really, really, boring, but taught valuable lessons. I get this idea ;)

I would think that these days all of this is incorporated into the CAD/CAM software that they're using, right?

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#360

Post by aryehof »

komali2 wrote: post #166
monksy wrote: post #20

I kind of think this article misses the mark a little. There is skill loss from heavy AI use. But I want to acknowledge the awkward elephant in the room. AI Is making people too fast. I don't mean that a faster output is bad. It's a faster output and code rather than a full understanding and experience in producing the code. It's rewarding people who try to talk about business value rather than the people that are bu…

> We're in a cesspit of business driven development In a business-driven world with business-driven governments writing business-driven rules, what's the alternative if you want to optimize for success?

Do slower and more considered business-driven development?
Post reply on HN