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How Monero’s proof of work works

blog.alcazarsec.com

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Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#71

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

One of the weird things about our world is that money is central to everything, but it’s hard to understand how it works. There’s a great deal of handwaving around how, for example, dollars are created, much of which is, in fact, not correct at all (most dollars are created not by the government, or even the Federal Reserve, but by private banks, via a mechanism which I will not pretend to fully understand).

The big flaw of Bitcoin, to my mind, is that it is an inherently deflationary currency. Deflation is one of those things that seems great on the surface: prices go down, not up, but when that happens it ends up creating an economic incentive to avoid spending since why buy something today if it will be cheaper tomorrow, and this ends up causing economic activity to slow down or stop entirely. A small amount of inflation, on the other hand creates an incentive to either spend money or invest it in something that will provide a better than inflation return, whether that’s putting it in a high-yield savings vehicle or making capital or financial investments. With deflation, you can just leave your funds in cash (where they will not provoke any economic growth) and get a return.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#72

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

> Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash?

They are supposed to be a medium of exchange. “Real life cash” is one of many forms of money; even for any particularly currency, like dollars, a very small fraction of use is “real life cash”. But, yes, in the most extreme visions, cryptocurrencies replace other currencies for all uses. More moderate visions, however, exist. So, as always when you use “supposed”, the answer is undefined without qualifying it as to by whom it is supposed.

> If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done?

Because there needs to be some mechanism to provide the currency supply, and also some incentive for people to provide the infrastructure on which the currency system relies. For fiat money systems the first is typical policy making in a central bank, and the second is government action to control competition in the banking space and to support banks, reinforcing the profitability of banks. Mining serves both of those functions in a cryptocurrency system (both reinforcing the profitability of transaction network participants and providing the mechanism by which currency supply is managed.)

> Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed to be "people can send currency to each other", or "people generate currency -- a number -- and sell this currency for real life money"?

Participants in a currency system selling it for other currencies (FOREX) is a feature of every currency system in a world with more than one currency. Again, the degree to which each of those is “supposed” to be the main function depends on exactly whose supposition you are looking at it.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#73
post #71

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

One of the weird things about our world is that money is central to everything, but it’s hard to understand how it works. There’s a great deal of handwaving around how, for example, dollars are created, much of which is, in fact, not correct at all (most dollars are created not by the government, or even the Federal Reserve, but by private banks, via a mechanism which I will not pretend to fully understand). The big…

I’d argue that this is more of a feature than a bug.

The assumption behind the “deflation is bad” argument is that spending itself is the goal. But spending is not automatically good. Productive spending and productive investment are good. Wasteful consumption, speculation, and forced risk-taking are not.

If money holds its value, people become more selective. They still buy food, housing, tools, entertainment, experiences, and things they genuinely want. Humans have needs, preferences, status impulses, advertising pressure, and finite lives. Demand does not disappear just because money is sound. What disappears is some of the artificial urgency to spend before your cash loses value.

The more important point is investment. In an inflationary system, holding money is punished, so everyone is pushed out onto the risk curve. You are not only investing because an opportunity is great; you are investing because the currency is being diluted and you need to escape it. That distorts the real cost of capital and makes mediocre investments look better than they are in nominal terms.

With harder money, investment has to beat the return of simply holding the money. That is a healthy hurdle rate. Capital should have to prove that it creates real value. If an investment only makes sense because the denominator is being debased, or because everyone is forced into assets to avoid inflation, then maybe that investment was not as productive as it looked.

This also matters for inequality. Inflation does not hit everyone equally. People with capital can protect themselves by owning stocks, real estate, ETFs, businesses, and other assets. They can diversify, borrow against assets, and ride asset inflation. Poorer people are more likely to hold wages and cash, so they are the ones whose purchasing power gets diluted first. Then they are told to “just invest,” but they are competing against people who already have capital, better access, better tax treatment, and more room to take risk.

So inflationary money quietly forces the poor to compete with the rich on the rich person’s playing field: asset ownership. A broad ETF may look like a safe wealth-preservation tool for someone with money, but for someone living paycheck to paycheck, the need to buy risk assets just to avoid being diluted is itself a problem.

A deflationary or hard-money system would probably reduce some marginal consumption and speculative investing. But that is not obviously bad. It may mean fewer bad investments, less artificial asset inflation, and more pressure for capital to flow only into things that genuinely outperform money itself. It would also be much more sustainable, not just economically but materially: if money no longer pressures everyone to consume and invest constantly just to outrun debasement, there is less incentive to waste real-world resources on unnecessary production, overconsumption, and short-lived goods.

The fear is that nobody would spend. But people do not stop buying things just because they expect their money to hold value. They stop buying things that are not worth giving up good money for. That sounds like discipline, not economic failure.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#74
post #31
post #7

[flagged]

It's great for buying drugs though! (Which is funnily the only actually legitimate usecase)

And sending donations to causes the government doesn't endorse.

A good example was the truck manifestation in Canada a few years ago, they went after all the donors for what was a legitimate protest. Anyone using bank transfers or any crypto that wasn't Monero was persecuted.

Those who used Monero had their privacy assured and zero issues.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#75
post #7

[flagged]

You'll get nothing but up votes here on HN, a lot are still angry they missed the boat. But solving the problem of how to transfer value trustlessly and anonymously, instantly anywhere in the world is one of the biggest breakthroughs since the Internet. Amazing how in a few short years kids started growing up with Bitcoin and don't understand how it work or why it exists :(

There was a boat to jump on? To gain what?

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#76
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wall Street got ahold of it and now Bitcoin is primarily acting as a Store of Value for the purpose of speculative investments Insomuch as beanie babies are a store of value. Speculative assets only have value as long as there are more greater fools to buy in. When you've exhausted the supply of greater fools, there is no more reason to buy the speculative asset because its price won't go up, so it will fall to its…

Roughly the same argument could be applied to gold, and yet it has been used as a value store for ages. Can't say I like crypto, but I think better arguments can be made against it.

Gold has a use value.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ETH is trying right now with proof of ownership.

Which automatically makes in possibly centralized (you can never ever guarantee that not a single entity - or group of colluding entities - hold the majority stake and thus excert control).

The same is true for PoW, though. You can never guarantee that a single entity or a group of colluding entities will not gain control of most of 50+% of the compute power required. If the compute hardware is useful for other purposes than mining your particular coin, the risk is in fact greater - someone could build or buy up this compute power, destroy the currency, and then use the assets for other purposes, recouping some of their investment. With PoS, at least this much is not possible - anyone who would want to destroy the currency would lose their whole investment.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#78
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting technical problem to solve. But after 15y still has no meaningful benefits for our societies. Other than gambling/speculation/illegal stuff. The transformative cryptocurrency shift didn’t happen

We are very far from 2140, the year the last bitcoin will be mined. 15 years is nothing, this is a very long term paradigm shift.

Is 2140 how far we're moving the goal posts now? All these resources burned will totally be worth it in over a hundred years?
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